Advice for Tomb Kings tactics & army list

So, I've finally reached the point where I feel I have a broad enough TK's army to do a battle.

Yes, I realize that this is LUSTRIA online but, as others have said, once you've been on this forum it kind of spoils any others in combined ease of use and friendliness.

Okay, so I'm putting together a Tomb Kings list for my next battle. My friend was going to do WoC but says he is kind of bored with this and is reviewing which army he wants to field.

From what I have seen, TK's has the following Pro's / Con's:

CONS:
- Unstable, so losing combat doesn't just mean losing it means potentially losing a LOT more models
- Low troop WS, unless an infantry unit with a TK or TP, but their rules don't affect monstrous infantry and they can't join monsters
- Lack of "Affect everyone in combat" spells to regenerate models
- Cannot increase size of unit beyond starting size
- (worst one) No marching
- Generally low armour
- Basically everyone has BS 2
- If your main wizard dies, has knock-on effect for all units suffering unsavable wounds

PROS:
- Everyone has Fear or better
- Everyone is Unbreakable
- Everyone can (potentially) regenerate, including monsters
- Buried beneath the Sands rule for really messing with people's deployment
- Chariots are Core and can gain rank bonus for impact hits
- No modifiers for moving and shoorting
- Some really wicked special troops and monsters
- They're totally awesome Egyptian undead who can potentialy team up with anyone

The funny thing about this last point, is it makes me want to explore some combined armies...

Anyways, I'd appreciate if @NIGHTBRINGER , @Lord-Marcus , @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl , @Killer Angel and any other Tomb-LIzards could share some nuggets of wisdom?

Thanks guys

(P.S. Just for the record, Settra does not serve)

 

As soon as my friend has decided upon which army he is fielding, then I will put together a list and post it for comments advice!

 

The My Will Be Done rule can effect monstrous infantry (Ushabti). The only stipulations on the rule are as follows:

• the TP/TK must be part of the unit (or in the case of Settra, within 6"). Infantry characters can join monstrous infantry units, although they will have to be annoyingly placed on the side of the unit (due to incompatible base sizes) and of course they won't receive a LoS roll since they are of different troop types.
• the unit must have the Nehekharan Undead special rule (which all TK units, including Ushabti, have).
• other characters receive no benefit from the rule
• mounts receive no benefit from the rule

It isn't the most tactical strategy, but it can be done.

You missed the definitive tactical feature of the TK army... they can produce one of the most potent magic phases in all of WFB!

This one really bugs me too. They are literally the slowest army in the entire game. Even Dwarfs can move 3+3" !

 

@NIGHTBRINGER is it an error that the Skull storm spell has no range? Or am I missing something?

 

No error. As per the BRB, magic vortexes are placed in base contact with the wizard (and a direction of movement is chosen) and then per the Skullstorm spell description, it moves artillery dice X caster's wizard level in inches.

For the record, Skullstorm is my least favourite spell in the lore of Nehekhara.

 

Wow, definitely missed that. I'll re-read it.

 

It seems like Sepulchral Stalkers are a pretty good counter to Hellcannons...

Since the Hellcannon has an initiative of 1 (and the rules for Monster & Handlers says you ignore the handlers), then it's auto-hits amount per artillery dice, 4's to wound and then he doesn't get an armour save.

He still gets the 5+ allocated to a handler and a 5+ ward save but the Math-hammer is still pretty good.

(Uber-dangerous against Lizardmen...)

 

Hmmmmm..... Normally Chariots can't march, but if they get the signature spell cast on them they get an extra movement phase...

Interesting...

 

So this is intriguing. I forgot to put it on the list for sure, but I definitely noticed the Casket of Souls +D3 power dice (I noted it's just power dice, not dispel unfortunately... ah well) and the Hierotitan +D3 to every casting within 12". Definitely cool.

Unfortunately the entire Lore of Nehekhara is Augment or Hex. The one Vortex is a double edged sword considering it can turn right round and hit your own hapless troops...

I was reading on EEFL that one tactic is to do a Hierophant with Lore of Nehekara and then ANOTHER Lich Priest with Lore of Light and a Light Council... to make this worthwhile it seems I'd have to have one or two Level 1's with Light Magic to buff the Banishment Spell...

Have as anyone tried this? Is it worth the points? (As my mathhammer says no, considering how much you'd be spending on Wizards...)

 

It's pretty potent, and the only phase the TK can actually dominate in.

The most I have fielded (in a 3k game) is a pair of level 4 LHPs (Nehek and Light). They were pretty effective, but I usually spend my points elsewhere. I think you are correct that spending too many points on magic is a trap... a trap that many TK generals fall victim to.

If you aren't a big fan of the Lore of Nehekhara, you could always field Arkhan the Black. Even as your Hierophant he still uses the Lore of Death. He can also store and convert unused dispel dice into power dice, plus the lore of death can further generate power dice. Plus he is a level 5 wizard.

 

It was pretty fortuitous that you asked me this just when I have been having a re-read of my copy of the Tomb Kings Army Book - as the army is so fresh in my mind right now, I’ll disclose my wisdom here.

Exactly the reason why I post non-Lizardman Warhammer stuff on here as well as EEFL

BSB is the main way you can limit the damage of this - a cheap Tomb Herald with Battle Standard is all you need.

Army-wide Fear counteracts this a little bit, because every time an enemy unit fails their Fear test even basic Skeletons without a King or Prince hit on 3s, and your Monstrous Infantry and Monsters are not the ones you need to worry about in the WS department.

Unless you’re playing against Vampire Counts or fighting an army using Lore of Life, this is a low-ranking priority - you’ll be more preoccupied with trying to bring casualties back than expanding your units further.

I actually don’t think this is the worst one, because Khsar’s Incantation of the Desert Wind gives all units in a bubble around the caster an extra move which is the equivalent of marching (and given you’re going to be aiming for magical dominance anyway, casting one extra spell isn’t going to be too bad for you - best to cast it after potentially more killy spells so that your opponent will waste his dispel dice trying to dispel the more killy spells and leave you free to give your guys a free march). Additionally, even if your Archers make both a normal move and this free move, as far as I can see they can still shoot, whereas marching for other races prevents them from shooting.

This isn’t too much of a problem given you’ll be focusing on boosting your attack power when choosing your options and making use of resurrection and Neru’s Incantation of Protection (which is a nice one for giving some additional durability) as your defensive elements.

This is probably the worst one - you can’t replace your Heirophant yet Vampire Counts can replace their conduit. Stupid GW and their biases towards boring factions over interesting ones (if you haven’t noticed I have grudges against Vampire Counts for being given the later ruleset than Tomb Kings and daring to still exist when Tomb Kings were scrapped).

Yes, but Monsters and Monstrous Infantry can’t regenerate that much at all. 1 wound per Magic Phase is a real kick to the stone nether-regions. It should really have been D3 wounds per Magic Phase or 1 wound per spell for animated constructs.

More than that, no modifiers at all for shooting, not even long range, meaning you’ll always be hitting on 5s. Given that most BS 3 troops are hitting on 6s if moving and shooting at long range, that’s actually not too bad.


Now we’ve got that out of the way, I’ll give my views on what you should take in each of your army categories:

Lords: If you’ve got enough points you should take both a Tomb King and a Liche High Priest - the former with a Dragonbane Gem and either the Destroyer of Eternities to make him a killing machine or the Blade of Antarhak to give him supreme regenerating abilities, and the latter preferably upgraded to Level 4, using Nehekhara and with some sort of protective magic item.

Heroes: If you can’t afford to have both a Tomb King and Liche High Priest in your Lords slot, a Tomb Prince will make a decent general who can still pack the Blade of Antarhak as it’s only 50 points, and any points left should be spent on a Tomb Herald with Battle Standard (Banner of the Hidden Dead is cool but too expensive to take, and the BRB Magic Standards are generally lacklustre, so just take a mundane standard) and numerous Liche Priests. Death has some killy spells and Light gives you buffs and is especially fun against your arch-enemy the Vampire Counts, but Nehekhara is a solid lore you should be using a lot of the time with your minor priests as well as your major Priest, as that’s the only way your army can make use of resurrection. Any of the augment or hex spells are great to have in their own way (augment spells give you extra models back and make your units stronger and hex spells make the enemy easier to kill), though if you get Skullstorm you should sub that out for Desert Wind to give you the ability to ‘march’.

Core: This is where you’ll generally be packing in heaps of Skeleton Warriors and Archers, because I don’t see the point of Skeleton Cavalry unless you’re playing a thematic army - Horsemen are only useful on the charge and preferably in the flank, while Horse Archers may seem fun as Fast Cavalry with Scouts but then you realise you can’t benefit from Fire on the March because you can’t march in the conventional sense, and can’t benefit from Feigned Flight because you can’t flee.

Though I hate Hordes, if you’re playing more competitively you should make use of them here as your troops are chaff troops, and given you’ve got rubbish armour and are relying more on resurrection anyway, you’re better off giving your Warriors Spears rather than Hand Weapons, because a 6+ Parry Save isn’t much more to add to your maximum armour save of 5+ and you want to get as many attacks out of them as possible. Taking units of 40 with Spears arrayed in 10x4 formation will allow you to attack with all of them, so you should be able to do something even against the more OP enemy units. You could put a Tomb King or Prince in each unit to given them an improved Weapon Skill, but personally I would save that for the Tomb Guard - Only Elite warriors deserve such an honour.

In terms of Archers, given you’re always hitting on 5s like 40K Orks, you’ll need a good few of them it’s fair to say - units of 30 are good in that as well as being able to Volley Fire they’ll also be able to all attack against an enemy if arrayed in 10x3 formation, so at least they’ll have some defence in close combat - which is just as well given you’ll be putting your Priests in your Archer units to minimise their time in close combat.

If you’re up against anything with Always Strikes First or anything that can be easily flanked, it’s also worth investing in a unit or two of Chariots, though they will be very reliant on Impact Hits and won’t be rolling nearly as many dice in combat as your infantry, so keep them to hit an enemy in the flank when he’s already bogged down by your Skeletons.

Special: Tomb Guard are a good choice for Special, especially if they act as a bodyguard for your Tomb King (particularly important if he has Destroyer of Eternities) and have the Banner of the Undying Legion at their command - WS 6 + attacks of the Tomb King + Killing Blow + resurrecting D6 +2 models per buff spell makes for a solid unit all round. Like with the Skeletons it’s best to eschew the hand weapon and shield option due to limited armour, and halberd with give these chaps Strength 5 to make them even more killy.

Necropolis Knights are an alternative to Chariots (only 10 points more per model) that sacrifices the Impact Hits and healing D3+1 wounds per buff spell for a superior armour save, superior regular close combat attacks, Stomps and the ability to make use of the Monstrous Horde rule. Against armies like Elves with Always Strikes First Chariots are probably better, but against other armies I would say Necropolis Knights are better (though don’t use them against other armies’ Monstrous Cavalry without a spell or two being cast in their favour).

Tomb Scorpions are fun things that can be used to take out enemy artillery, but only buy one or at the very most two, as you’ve got more expensive stuff to buy first.

Ushabti, though awesome fluff-wise, are the ones hit especially hard by the rule that Animated Constructs can only be healed by 1 wound per Magic Phase - I can understand why they made this clause to avoid your Toughness 8 monsters continually healing to max health, but this hurts your Monstrous Infantry badly. GW amended this in the Vampire Counts Book by making only units with the Large Target special rule heal by 1 wound per Magic Phase, but Tomb Kings were made Vampire Counts’ guinea pig so don’t get this. I can see a big Ushabti unit with great weapons being useful as a horde-killer or as a counter to Ironguts, but Warsphinxes are better Horde killers and you won’t need a counter to Ironguts if your friend doesn’t play Ogres. Ushabti with bows are a nice addition to your shooting phase, but otherwise there are more useful units available.

You should certainly take at least one Warsphinx given competitive Fantasy players are obsessed with Hordes - T8 plus Thundercrush ruins any Horde’s day. Even Chaos Warriors struggle against this thing.

Tomb Swarms are superior to Jungle Swarms as they can deep strike and heal D3+1 wounds with each buff spell they receive as well as having poisoned attacks, but Swarms are generally not that much use in this Edition anyway, especially when you’ve got Tomb Scorpions who can do a similar job only better.

Carrion are an interesting unit - though they are not nearly as good as Ushabti on paper, they are half the points, can Fly and heal by D3+1 wounds per buff spell. If you’ve got some points left over, I’d say give some of these guys a try, they can make a nuisance of themselves, take out Fast Cavalry and Skirmishers and generally distract the enemy.

Sepulchral Stalkers are situational - against low-Initiative armies they are useful, especially with their ability to Deep Strike, and could be seen as a more substantial alternative to Tomb Scorpions, just as capable of hunting war machines as charging in the flank or rear to support your infantry, but they haven’t got as many attacks or as good armour as Necropolis Knights and risk damaging themselves with their special attack. They are cheaper than Necropolis Knights so if they do die you won’t lose so many points at once, but are arguably not as effective, especially against higher Initiative armies.

Rare: Given you’re aiming to achieve magical dominance, you certainly should take a Casket of Souls to give you some extra power dice, and I would also advise you take a Hierotitan too. However, GW in their infinite lack of wisdom didn’t make a Hierotitan model, and though there are conversion kits out there they are quite rare. If you have a Hierotitan model by all means take it to truly give your forces UNLIMITED POWER in the Magic Phase, but if not then it won’t matter too much as long as you still have a Casket. If this is the case, Necrosphinxes and Necrolith Colossi are also good choices - the Necrosphinx is a premier monster-killer and the Colossus can be great against infantry and cavalry on the charge if you give him an extra hand weapon to maximise the potency of his ability to make an extra attack with every kill he makes. Screaming Skull Catapults are another thing you can bring against enemy hordes, but given you’ll have at least one Warsphinx and possibly a Colossus to take care of them you probably shouldn’t invest in one.

Hope that helps

@NIGHTBRINGER I’ve been working on my response since reading exclusively @Lizards of Renown’s first post, I’ll read your posts later

 

A true Tomb Kings player would never rely upon the services of Nagash’s pawn - Settra does not serve, especially not the Traitor or his minions!

Besides, Lore of Nehekhara is integral to the Tomb Kings’ being, as that’s the only way you can resurrect models. Personally I think the buffs from the augment spells are nice, and the hex spells are a good way of softening up your foe to help your Skeletons last longer against them.

 

Thanks for taking the time to go through it mate.

 

I can see, that like with most things, you and I have very different outlooks/opinions when it comes to TK tactics/strategy! At least it makes for a more robust and interesting discussion.

 

Ha! Totally true.

For me, I appreciate different viewpoints and fighting styles. Between these and my own take on the army from the rulebooks, I then come up with how I'd like to play them and then have a go at it!

 

Well, my views have come from just reading the Tomb Kings Army Book as unfortunately I don’t have any miniatures yet. As you’ve had more practical experience, I’d be happy to hear your full views on what I’ve said.

 

Right. So he's chosen to do WoC. I think he's trying to indulge my madness on challenging them with TK's and even out the wins/losses tally between us...

So I'll finish my list and post it.

WARNING: This list will be likely be the weirdest you will have seen as I indulge all my crazy ideas I had when I first read the book.

(that way, no matter what happens in the battle, it should be a laugh)

 

Fair enough. I'll try to go over some the thoughts and ideas that I see differently from yours. That is not to say that mine are right or yours are wrong. We each have unique playstyles, so natural differences will arise in how we view certain units. These are my thoughts based on my limited TK playing experience and a fair bit of forum exploration. Hopefully it makes for some fun discussion!

I see a couple of problems here:

• the BSB effect only reduces the crumble effect by a single wound and the unit must of course be within 12"
• from what I have read, the Tomb Herald is often considered to be one of the worst TK selections
• a cheap Tomb Herald BSB is 85pts at the minimum, and that is with nothing but light armour, T4 and 2 flammable wounds protecting him
• even the cheapest of Tomb Herald BSB is pretty close in points to a Tomb Prince, and the TP will likely be far more beneficial
• don't forget that if you keep your BSB as cheap as possible, he is extremely squishy and will give up 85pts + 100pts +item upgrades of victory to your opponent
• while a BSB is a vital part of most armies, the same is not true for BSBs in undead armies. You just don't get the same bang for your buck.

It will come in handy every once in a while, but it is hardly something we can rely on. Most armies have good leadership (especially in the general's bubble) and they often have a BSB close by for re-rolls. As such, it is rare when a fear check is failed. That said, when it does happen, it is a nice little bonus.

The problem with that is you need to expend valuable power dice to replicate what everyone else gets for free. Also, you have to be in range of the spell. I've often found it difficult to get out of position units back into the fight, and it is precisely in those cases where the lack of a march move becomes vital. The spell only has a range of 12" unless you are casting the boosted version... which sucks up even more PD and increases the probability of a miscast.

The point on the archers is a small bonus, but only a very small one. How often will they need that extra move to get into range? Plus there is no guarantee that you get the spell off. Also, while not applicable to small units of archers (2 ranks or less), larger units are still penalized for any kind of movement in the form of losing their volley fire.

The TK's resurrection capabilities are a far cry from that of your beloved Vampire Counts. It is best viewed as a nice bonus, but is not reliable or significant enough to rely on. I do love the incantation of protection, but it is once again a magic dependent band-aid that has no guarantees of being there when you really need it (failing to cast it, dispelled, needing dice for other spells, being out of range). It would be nice if some of our more significant troops had a little bit more armour (heavy armour for TG, 4+ for some of our constructs and a 2+ for the Snake Surfers).

The general consensus is to opt for a TP over a TK as the TP is more points efficient. I think an argument can be made for the two builds you mentioned (they are my two favourite TK builds) and the third I've seen mentioned is the Golden Death Mask. That said, I personally usually run out of points before I can squeeze a TK into my list (and that is at 3000 points). I have been working on a potentially fun little Destoryer of Eternities list though!

Every army needs harassers/chaff. For Tomb Kings this is typically either Skeleton Horse Archers or Carrion. Carrion are usually considered to be the better unit, but the Horse archers come out of core! Skeleton Horsemen are rarely fielded from what I have read (because the Horse Archers are vastly superior).

As you mentioned, they might not be as good as similar units in other armies (the lack of marching rears it ugly head yet again), but they are still the only options we have. I think going into a battle without either horse archers or Carrion is a risky move

Personally I'd much rather play HW&S (without light armour) than spears. First off, you have more bodies because you don't have to pay the 1pt upgrade cost. Second, every parry made is immediately a saved wound (and potentially a second one saved through less crumbling) , while the extra S3 attack still needs to hit, wound and beat saves to be of any use. How much good is an extra rank of S3 attacks really going to be? At least in the case of the Saurus Warriors the upgrade is free and the extra attacks are at S4 (and even then I usually opt for HW&S). Plus, parry saves are good to the last man (or skeleton man), while spears become useless once you lose your third rank.

Sadly they are but a mere shadow of their former glory in the old army book. Previously, they could charge on the turn in which they arrived, but now they cannot. They were virtually auto-includes before. In the current book they are extremely exposed on the turn in which they arrive and that is also another turn in which they are not contributing anything. I greatly prefer Stalkers over them because they can shoot on the turn they arrive (ask my wife's Treemen about Stalkers!)

I think the Warsphinx (or even multiples of it) can be useful, but it is far from an auto include for me. Like most monsters it really doesn't like cannons, especially as it lacks a regen or ward save. Additionally, poison... especially poisoned shooting is the bane of its existence (think Lizardmen and Wood Elves). Also, as it can't march, it is painfully slow. Without magical intervention it has the movement speed of a Dwarf.

The Thundercrush is potentially great, but it is an all-or-none attack (of course the crew can still attack + thunderstomps). At WS 4, it is usually a coin toss or worse.

The golden rule of a Warsphinx is to get it into combat with units with a low number of premium attacks (S5 or 6) as those are no more likely to wound it as S1, S2, S3 or S4 attacks. You want to keep it away from units that put out a large number of attacks (even weak attacks) because they will start to roll 6's, and a 5+ armour save isn't going to do that much for you.

I don't think comparing Carrion to Ushabti directly is useful. They are very different types of units, with completely different roles on the battlefield. A great number of players over on the TK forum swear by these guys (much more so that Ushabti). They are genuinely quite well regarded.

Think of them as a creature with an Ogre stat line, but with only two wounds but they fly and only cost 24 points. Shame they can't fly march or they would be extremely potent.

The viewpoints surrounding Stalkers seems to vary more greatly than just about every other TK unit. Some people feel they are rubbish and others feel they are a must-have. I personally love them. They bring a utility to a TK army that no other unit really does (and for multiple reasons). They are a bit more tricky to use and do have a great deal of randomness built into them... however, use them well, and they usually give you a positive return on your investment. Generically, the only time they don't make it into my list is when I'm going for a Ramhotep build.

I've been planing on making an extensive Stalker tactica... we'll see if I ever get around to it.

Aside from its one S10 HKB attack it is pretty much gimped by only having S5. S5 really doesn't cut it as a monster-killer. How many monster vs. monster matchups would you favour it in? Sure the HKB will land once in a blue moon, and that will be highly memorable, but relying on a lucky roll of a six on a single attack is a fool's errand in my opinion. The Destroyer of Eternities TK is a much riskier proposition for opposing monsters to consider.

What I do like about the Necrosphinx is that it is pretty fast by TK standards and has a very threatening charge range. Terror + a maximum charge range of 22" can really screw with low leadership troops outside of the general's bubble.


However, use it carefully.

I've never fielded one myself. I think it is one of those units that looks better on paper than on the battlefield. WS3 and only a 5+ armor save really let it down.


Anyways, that's a rough version of my thoughts. Admittedly people have different playstyles, so things that I might consider sub-par might work for you and vice versa.

 

Okay, so I went through the WoC list and, for a 3K battle against TKs, I estimated what he will bring:

Chaos Lord on daemonic mount, Mark of Nurgle, various magic items
BSB, Mark of Nurgle, various magic items
Chaos Level 4 Sorcerer, Mark of Nurgle, various magic items
Daemon Prince, Mark of Nurgle, Chaos armour, some daemonic gifts

2 units of 25 Chaos Warriors, Mark of Nurgle, probably additional hand weapon rather than halberds as he doesn't really need them and will want to be making more combat resolution difference

I think he'll take some marauder horsemen or troops to try to redirect my Chariot charges (he knows approximately what models I have and said in his last email that he needs to work out a counter to them)

1 unit of 10 Chaos Knights (he's very found of them for obvious reasons and usually sticks his lord and sorcerer in there).

2 Hellcannons (which I think he'll probably end up with as a counter to the chariots since he can sit back and shoot the mahrlect out of them before they arrive with their shitty speed and even if I rush them magically they will be utterly unsupported and get flanked or the daemon prince will Fly-charge them and they'll lose any advantage they may have had).

-

I'm writing my list based on the idea that if it gets to battle lines meeting in close combat, I've lost. I need to specialize in shooting, magic and impact hits to win me the game (plus some luck obviously as they're not great options for winning any battle.

@NIGHTBRINGER @Killer Angel @Lord-Marcus @Khemrian Slann I'd love to hear any unconventional tactics you may have used in the past with TK's. In return, I will treat you with a very crazy army list and even crazier battle tactics.