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8th Ed. Blowpipes vs Javs?

Discussion in 'Lizardmen & Saurian Ancients Tactics' started by McCoy, May 5, 2015.

  1. McCoy
    Saurus

    McCoy Member

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    I'm just getting back into gaming side of things. When I used to play a couple of years ago blowpipes were the way to go. Now the consensus seems to be with javs. Why the change? Looking at it, I still think blowpipes are superior for the double tap at close range. The only reason I can think for javs is a change in play style, ie rather than using the skirmishers as annoying flankers they are used as charge blockers and therefore aren't as likely to get up close.

    What do you think?
     
  2. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    The advantage that blowpipes have is the double tap ability, but you need ideal circumstances to pull it off. Either you move into short range, or you stand still and you can fire at long range to hit on 6's. This of course assumes that there are no other to hit modifiers in play. The second you end up hitting on 7's, you're far better off not using the multiple shots rule because otherwise you lose your poison. So although blowpipes have great potential, it is fairly rare when you can actually make use of their prime advantage.

    The Javelin setup on the other hand has several advantages...
    • free shields (which goes nicely with the 6+ scaly skin, parry, etc.)
    • no penalty for moving and shooting
    • can declare a stand and shoot reaction no matter how close the enemy is charging from

    So under ideal circumstances, blowpipes are obviously better... but those situations are very few and far between. Conversely Javelins are more versatile and better suited for most situations.

    That's my take on it anyways; hope that helps :)
     
  3. Sebbs
    Cold One

    Sebbs Active Member

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    Furthermore, javs are 'strenght as user' so atleast early game a wildform could make somewhat of a difference should you manage to hit on 5s :rolleyes:

    Edit: And chip away one point of armor save.
     
  4. FRYtheEGGofQUANGO
    Skink

    FRYtheEGGofQUANGO Member

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    In case you didn't know (you seem to imply that you don't in your sentence), poisoned attacks are modified by the strength of the attack. So, str4 javelins that hit on 6's modify the armour save of the opponent by -1, as well as the regular hit+wound rolls.

    Anyway, blowpipes are kinda bad now that we don't recieve +1 to hit large targets. Javs+shield in contrast are now the same range as blowpipes, as well as having defensive pros. I don't see why anyone would field blowpipe skinks, unless they are the only spare models you have in your collection for a skirmish unit.
     
  5. Scalenex
    Slann

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    I usually take two units of Skirmishers in most of my lists and they nearly always take Javelins and Shields. If I feel like taking a third unit of Skirmishers, I usually give them blowpipes. It takes an ideal situation to make blowpipes better than Javelins and Shields. Usually if I have a "spare" unit of Skirmishers and I deploy them last or near to last, I can find a target that qualifies for "ideal,"

    If I'm making a specific list to take on Orcs and Goblins, I am more likely to take blowpipe Skirmishers. At least going half and half for my Skirmishers, sometimes going 100% blowpipes for the sheer novelty factor. The O&G plethora of random movement units makes the quick to fire minimum stand and shoot ability less shiny (since you don't get a stand and shoot against random movement enemies). The O&G plethora of monsters with weak or non-existant armor saves makes running up to within six inches and pffting darts at them more appealing.

    So there you go, I agree that javelin Skinks are the better choice but I outlined two situations where [someone] would field blowpipe Skinks for a reason other than spare models.
     
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  6. wildsaint
    Skink

    wildsaint Member

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    why can they stand and shoot regardless of how close a charge? is it because they are quck to fire?
     
  7. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    YUP... Quick to Fire allows you to stand and shoot regardless of the charge distance!
     
  8. borkbork
    Ripperdactil

    borkbork Active Member

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    Yup, quick to fire is extremely usefull. Especially on fast things like skinks and wolf riders (gtilla, O&g special character gives quick to fire to his unit).

    Move up close to a glass canon or expensive fast cavalry, shoot it, receive charge and shoot it again.

    As for skinks, i prefer javs as well. but like scalanex allready said, if you allready have a few skirmish units with javs, it can be handy to vary a bit.
     
  9. McCoy
    Saurus

    McCoy Member

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    I still see the blowpipes as being pretty good, I usually play smaller games and I've managed to get the double tap off a few times, perhaps this is because there are less units that threaten flankers.

    I think I may well take one of each in future and see how they compare. I guess you have to play with them in different styles if you want to utilise the blowpipes effectively. Jav&shield move up in front of units to get some fire in and redirect charges, blowpipes flank around in hope to get their double tap off.
     
  10. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    No doubt. Under the right circumstances they can be devastating! Blowpipes have a greater potential output; but overall Javelins are better.

    In the case of Chameleon Skinks' blowpipes we have a completely different story because they have BS 4. That means that they can move, fire at long range, double tap and still hit on 6's!
     
  11. Akholrak
    Skink

    Akholrak Member

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    Although I am new to the army, I would say Javelins are better. Quick to Fire means that you can move and shoot without penalty, and can always Stand and Shoot. There are also more situations where you would need a 6 To Hit and auto-wound. Furthermore, the free shield will increase resiliency to small arms fire and Magic Missiles.

    In saying that, Blowpipes aren't terrible. It just seems that there is few situations where you will be able to hit on 6's or better. They synergise very well with Hand of Glory, but you are never guaranteed to get the spell off. I think with multiple units (3-4+) Blowpipes on a unit or 2 might be a good choice, otherwise go Javelin & Shield.
     
  12. Sebbs
    Cold One

    Sebbs Active Member

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    By early game what I meant was that later in the game you might prioritize casting other spells, or wildform, on some of your other units. I see now how what I wrote is lacking insight :)
     
  13. themuffinman873
    Chameleon Skink

    themuffinman873 Member

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    I have been on a focus mystery kick recently so I always take one unit of blowpipes. Two dice Hand of glory on a unit of blowpipes will draw out alot of dispel dice, making space for the real scary spells. If they don't fall for it, you still get a fairly powerful attack. Trick is dealing with HoGs 18" range.

    Parrys are cool and all but even after you save a couple lives from the extra armor/parry you will still probably be rolling on insane courage after said battle.

    Javs are versatile, but not necessarily useful. Perhaps just easier to use.
     
  14. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    I'd argue that Javelins are more useful in more situations.
     
  15. Irish_Lizard
    Saurus

    Irish_Lizard Member

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    Javs are the go to choice for most tournament lists but I can see the argument for one unit of skirmishers with blowpipes. Obviously camo skinks and cohorts are both awesome with their default choice but irrelevant to the discussion as they dont get a choice. As for boosting blowpipe units with magic, there are almost always better spells(maybe hand of glory with the last dice but thats very situational).
     
  16. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    Agreed. A unit of blowpipe skinks can be useful.
     

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