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Discussion Communication with Pathetic Warmbloods

Discussion in 'Fluff and Stories' started by spawning of Bob, Jun 4, 2016.

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  1. spawning of Bob
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    spawning of Bob Well-Known Member

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    As threatened, I am going to collate options and examples of means of communication between Lizardmen and Lesser Races. The intent is for this to be indexed into the Lustriapedia, the L-O writer's resource.

    The Problem: Lizardmen / Seraphon come from culturally and geographically different origins to the other races, and if we don't mind getting technical, would have very different vocal apparatus to mammal based creatures. How can they communicate?

    Analysis includes possible "logical" mechanisms, and pros and cons from a writing perspective. Cons may include the effort of explaining it and/or the amount of suspension of disbelief it will cost you if you don't.

    Solution A: If you communicate using your spear alone, your average Warmblood will get the point. (Don't even bother trying to use a shared language)
    Mechanisms: Cultural isolation / they are just animals anyway / If he is the enemy of my enemy, I don't need to ask questions / shooting fireballs or blowdarts at range is probably this /
    Writing Pros: No explanation required / can make the antagonist alien and scary /
    Writing Cons: antagonist's motivations can only be guessed at /
    The Coward by @Killer Angel
    The Ghosts We Have by @Oldblood Itzahuan
    The Monument by @Pestdrake

    Solution B: Make at least a bit of effort to use sign language or such.
    Mechanisms: Universality of gestures (shaking weapon to challenge, pointing, submissive posture ) / intelligent beings improvising to communicate /
    Writing Pros: requires show don't tell / can emphasise common ground between very different folk / can set up plot relevant miscommunications
    Writing Cons: a saurian smile being interpreted by a human as a happy look. If a dog smiles at you it is about to take a chunk of flesh / difficult with complex ideas /
    Examples:
    The Coward by @Killer Angel - a rat head being interpreted as equivalent to a bunch of flowers by saurians
    Cold Commerce (story 2) by @spawning of Bob
    Cities of Gold (story 5) by @lordkingcrow


    Solution B1: Lizardman Body Language being easy to interpret and vica versa
    Mechanisms: a lashing tail, fluttering crest, open hands, submissively bared neck / that human smiled at me - it's a challenge!!!!!
    Writing Pros: show don't tell / uses analogues known to most human readers / can set up plot relevant miscommunication
    Writing Cons: The one interpreting might be assuming unbelievably much - ASS YOU MEet the High Priest of Sotek /



    Solution C: Unmediated Telepathy
    Mechanisms: It's a space frog. Deal with it / Usually involves a power gradient / may involve violation of the weaker party's mind / can happen without the receiver being aware /
    Writing Pros: can set it up with less effort than it took me to write this sentence / establishes power gradient / can operate over infeasible distances (like across a battlefield or continent) / maintains foreignness
    Writing Cons: unrealistic because all Slann speak in a Sean Connery voice all the time (thank you, @Bowser ) / Relies on convenient magic / makes lying tricky or impossible / heck why not just read the mind instead of having a chat for the reader's benefit? / if converting to speech may include concepts that the receiver may not have words for ("he implanted an image of Tzunki in my mind!") /
    Examples:
    Whispers in the Wind by @Nahualpiltzintli
    Fool's Gold by @Trociu
    Count Renliss' Journey to Lustria by @Scalenex (Slann and vampires)
    Extermination by @Bowser

    Solution D: Magic device / magic spell mediated telepathy
    Mechanisms: It's an amulet. Deal with it /
    Writing Pros: easy set up / can operate over a distance / maintains foreignness
    Writing Cons: how is it eavesdropping proof? / lying is tricky / speech conversion issue as above /
    Examples:
    Dead Water by @Scalenex (shadow wizards use spells)
    Divided We Fall by @Scalenex Slann transatlantic communication.


    Solution E: Magic device / magic spell mediated intelligible vocal sounds
    Mechanisms: It's a megaphone. A magic one. Deal with it /
    Writing Pros: substitutes for normal voice / maintains foreignness /
    Writing Cons: actually requires limited mindreading or google translate - why not just read that mind instead? or google the answer? /
    The Orphaned Temple City by @Scalenex (daemons speak all languages for reasons)
    New Alliances by @Scalenex (a "speaking stone" pendant)
    The Harvest by @spawning of Bob (a vocal cord stimulating collar which makes no sense whatsoever)


    Solution F: Use of written word / signs / diagrams / maps
    Mechanisms: point to existing text, artwork, statues or friezes / create on demand with normal writing tools / improvise on demand (mud map) / a scholar is fluent in the written language of the counterpart species / flags or banners like running up the colours on a pirate ship / semaphore
    Writing Pros: can get more spatial or contextual info than gesture / use of text can convey meaning even if the writer can't physically make the sounds of the language / can set up plot relevant misinterpretation of records or artwork /
    Writing Cons: may require a stereotypical nerdy scholar with coke bottle glasses and a pasty complexion / open to misinterpretation /
    Examples:
    Paranoia by @Otzi'mandias

    Solution G: Lizard / lizards make the effort to learn to speak a heavily accented warmblood tongue.
    Mechanisms: significant trading or slaving relationship / every temple has a linguistic scholar skink / character specific cross cultural experience / a space frog pressed the language into my head. But no one told him Esperanto is dead. Stupid space frog /
    Writing Pros: easy or plausible to set up / allows for plot-important or comedic miscommunication /
    Writing Cons: may need a nerdy scholar / if every single lizard is a speaker, you need a different explanation / may be implausible depending on how isolationist your lizards are / may require excessssive use of "S"s to portray character voice / There are lot of languages to know and sub-dialects could not all be studied /
    Examples:
    In the Serpent's Eye by @Hyperborean
    Pirates of the Dragon Isles by @Warden




    Solution H: Warmblood speaks accented Lizard Tongue
    Mechanisms: significant trading or slaving relationship / every temple has a linguistic scholar skink / character specific cross cultural experience / a space frog pressed the language into my head. Saluton kiel vi fartas bastardo rano. /
    Writing Pros: I would get them to learn our language and make them pay for the lessons / easy or plausible to set up /
    Writing Cons: implausible if your lizards just kill everyone instantly anyway / character voices of broken speech can come across as racist (this means you Jar Jar) or ignorant or unintelligent /
    Examples:
    The Fall of Turochitan by @Scalenex
    Divided We Fall by @Scalenex (Vampire and Banshee)
    The Beginning by @Fhanados
    The Blood Dish by @spawning of Bob (I hated doing this to the Amaxon "primitives" because it seems like a hack stereotype of an indigenous culture, but doing anything else would have taken too many not plot advancey words.)



    Solution I: There is a legitimate shared language known by most / all races
    Mechanisms: Common language roots - we are the First, after all and can claim our gods invented the languages for the use of the races they created / languages change over time, but the WHFB world has many essentially immortal inhabitants who would preserve old languages / significant global trading, diplomatic or slaving contact / paradoxically, having many different local languages (see PNG and Orcs in Tolkien) / a "new" language being superior to the "old" (Greek being the language of scholars in the Roman Middle East Circa New Testament) /
    Writing Pros: Character voices can be written with outrageous French accents for Bretonnian Kniggits / easy to write / everyone can understand each other and express themselves eloquently / can retain own local language for secret discussions (khazalid) /
    Writing Cons: effort to establish vs implausible to have without explanation
    Examples:
    The Lord of the Rings by @JRR Tolkien
    The Fourth Emperor by @spawning of Bob (notice who my story is beside???)
    A Memory? by @Y'ttar Scaletail

    Solution J: Everyone speaks the same language/s fluently
    Mechanisms: just because. Deal with it / Similar to above /
    Writing Pros: super convenient /
    Writing Cons: potentially implausible for everyone except @Otzimandias (pre Great Catastrophe), but everything else he does is even more implausible, so I guess he has blown it anyway. /
    Examples:
    Completely Anonymous Entry (story 7) by @Scalenex (but that word they use, some people do not think it means what they think it means)
    Origins by @Otzi'mandias
    Anything by @Kcibrihp-Esurc

    Solution K: Shared language but very different cultural based idiom.
    Mechanisms: Different cultural or geographical or ecological backgrounds
    Writing Pros: acknowledges different culture or history / scope for misunderstanding / comedic possibilities / dramatic misinterpretation likely / allows exploration of different culture
    Writing Cons: tempting to be silly or just too confusing for human writers to follow
    Examples:
    Dead Water by @Scalenex (His canopy is bereft of leaves = he has a screw loose)
    A Game of Scales by @theghostwriter (To kick the puppy = to cut the head off the snake)


    Solution L: You speak your language, I understand it and visa versa.
    Mechanisms: Different vocal apparatus make different sounds
    Writing Pros: acknowledges different culture or physiology / scope for misunderstanding.
    Writing Cons: works fine on screen / could be clunky to write gibberish or write your own language
    Examples:
    It works for Huttese speakers, Wookiees and Droids in Star Wars therefore it is totally legit.

    Solution M: Use a third party translator
    Mechanisms: Someone must have a trading / diplomatic / slaving relationship with the other race.
    Writing Pros: very easy to plausibly set up / adds the spice of the interpreter posssibly having their own agenda / allows double miscommunication potential and lying for various motives / comedic possibilities galore /
    Writing Cons:
    Examples:
    Blackadder - The Queen of Spain's Beard by @Rowan Atkinson and @Richard Curtis





    I will continue to interpret and integrate other comments - so please keep chatting / rambling / interlocuting / digressing / whatever
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2016
    spawning of Bob, Jun 4, 2016
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  2. Scalenex
    Slann

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    Mahrlect Bob, I was going to add meaningful details but you keep changing the lettering system on me with multiple edits!

    I'm going to bed, I'll post my response once you sort this out.
     
    Scalenex, Jun 4, 2016
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  3. Killer Angel
    Slann

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    In the examples, you should really insert "Harvest"... ;)
     
    Killer Angel, Jun 4, 2016
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  4. spawning of Bob
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    spawning of Bob Well-Known Member

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    The Great Plan doesn't specify we need to talk to the weaklings. What are the alternatives?

    Warmbloods can be made to comply with the Great Plan by indirect means. I am collecting examples.

    Psychic Mind Control
    Fool's Gold by @Trociu (probably)


    Psychic Mind Destruction
    In the Serpent's Eye by @Hyperborean


    Chemical Zombiefication
    Fool's Gold by @Trociu


    Illusion
    Count Renliss' Journey to Lustria by @Scalenex


    Manipulation of EVERYTHING
    The False Moon War by @spawning of Bob


    Producing Inconvenient Geography


    Threats and promises


    Herding into the Ripperdactyl Swamp


    Any Others?
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2016
    spawning of Bob, Jun 4, 2016
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  5. spawning of Bob
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    spawning of Bob Well-Known Member

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    That is weird. I actually forgot about that one while I was trawling through old story comps and the Lustriapedia.
     
    spawning of Bob, Jun 4, 2016
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  6. Slanputin
    Carnasaur

    Slanputin Well-Known Member

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    I think telepathy, mediated or otherwise, is the easiest method to employ if you don't want to sweat the details. A writing system, language, or wild gesticulation may all require some level of detailed explanation (how does an entire world have a shared language;wouldn't this also vary geographically? how long does it take to translate the writing system/gesticulation, and how clear is the translation?) Telepathy, being based in magic or psychic power, is easy to employ because its assumed to work beyond the bounds of what the audience understands, thus the audience is willing to suspend their skepticism on how it works in comparison to more mundane means. If you then add some caveat to how telepathy works (for example, a dependency on some environmental condition or device) then you also get a MacGuffin of sorts to play with.

    The only point where this sweating-the-details doesn't matters as much would be in any non-earnest writing. Such as some comedy or abstract prose.
     
    Slanputin, Jun 4, 2016
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  7. Scalenex
    Slann

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    Thanks Bob, I didn't realized I was such a pioneer in cross-species communication. You missed a few though. Both Adrienne and Huan-kai had language bypassing cantrips. I figure in Scalenex-verse any decently skilled Shadow wizard who can pull the trick off if they are so inclined.


    Solution A blurs the lines with solution B whenever someone writes a narrative battle report. You can guess most challenges between Lizardmen champions and enemies they cannot speak with involve weapon gesticulation, chest thumping and pointing.


    Solution B would include your story "Cold Commerce." If memory serves me they traded without a word. I would include @Killer Angel's "The Coward." Holding a Skaven head is a pretty good signal (you hate rats, I hate rats!). I bet if I audited all the short stories, Solution B would pop up often.


    You over applied Solution C While I do have more powerful Daemons use telepathy in The Orphaned Temple CIty and "The Last Slann" you may have noticed that Daemons have spoken aloud in nearly piece I included them. In Scalenex-verse Daemons automatically speak all languages since they are derived from the sins and urges of all mortals. This is only quasi-voluntary and this gets confusing if there are multiple language speakers in one place,
    that's how Belrikt was able to trick Locklirist into switching languages mid speech accidentally telling the Skaven he planned to betray them.
    . It’s unclear whether the suffering protagonist in the Serpent’s Eye got his snippet of religious conversion from telepathy, magically enhanced speech, or directed nightmares (which I guess would be a form of telepathy).


    Solution E I was going to mention you initially left out the magic collar you created for "Harvest." I would change Solution E to magic anything. I would say the aforementioned ability of Scalenex-verse Daemons to communicate with all mortals is a magical ability. In Legacies, Both Adrienne and Huan-kai used Shadow magic to talk to each other. In Scalenex-verse I figure Shadow magic is the easiest to translate with given that Shadow magic forms thoughts into constructs and that’s a good metaphor for how thoughts create constructs of words and sentences.

    The possibilities of “a wizard did it” are nigh-endless. I figure Light could allow translation by illuminating ignorance and burning away misunderstanding. Life and Beasts magic could allow relatively simple concepts to be translated through primal understandings. If Death magic allows talking to the dead, it should bypass language barriers. Same for blasphemous necromantic variants. High Magic and Dark Magic have enough universal understanding of the world that translation should be a breeze for their practitioners.

    There is a special character in the Warriors of Chaos book who can overcome all language barriers, as long as he’s trying to goad someone into a challenge. I imagine a lot of magic would work along those principles. I bet a lot of magic can clearly communicate “You’re going down!”


    Solution F would include "Paranoia" written by @Otzi'mandias. It showed up a little bit in official GW fluff with Marco Colombo producing maps for a Slann.


    Solution G was used in more short story entries than I can count. It pops up in longer pieces too, @Tlac'Natai the Observer is the most prolific user of this one as his city makes an effort to communicate with lesser, but lots of writers have a need for the Lizardmen to say something when the protagonist is not a reptile. It also turns up in the 5th edition Lizardmen army book more than once (one had a Skink fluent in Nehekharan, one in Brettonian). In the Orphaned Temple City, I had a Skink scribe that could speak Greenskin, barely. I figure most Temple Cities employ a few scribes that can memorize the few warmblood words they picked up over the centuries. If I ever get around to writing a sequel to New Alliances some Lizardmen will start working on picking up Khazalid and a few Dwarfs will start working on Saurian.


    You under applied Solution H. The City of Turochlitan had humans who grew up speaking Saurian and there were a lot of pieces written with that setting. I believe @Fhanados had at least some Amazons who learned Saurian the old fashioned way.


    You over-applied solution I, I believe Mr. Ratty specifically said they spoke through a “human” tongue.


    Solution G would be your action-comedy universe, Bob. Before Fourth Emperor, it seemed like everyone spoke the same language. It certainly was the case in my two parodies of your works. The line between I and G always seems blurred to me.
     
    Scalenex, Jun 5, 2016
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  8. spawning of Bob
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    spawning of Bob Well-Known Member

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    Yes plenty more examples exist on L-O and elsewhere - I will update the original post eventually. I think I could add a heading about lizard body language having an obvious meaning to warm bloods.

    I will also start collecting the pros and cons and justifications of each choice from a writing point of view. Are there any that stick out as being clunky / efficient / realistic?
     
    spawning of Bob, Jun 5, 2016
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  9. Bowser
    Slann

    Bowser Third Spawning

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    Slightly tougher to make a call with Seraphon. Could be Psychic/Magic from the Slann. "Of course I remember he speaks Elvish, oh and Orkish." (In the Slann's own Sean Connery voice) Boom! Problem solved.

    Am I the only one who pictures Slann speaking like Sean Connery? When I read their dialogue, that's the voice I assign to every Slann in my head. Like just a bunch of slightly different, bad Sean Connery impersonations. You guys do that too right?
     
    Bowser, Jun 5, 2016
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  10. Scalenex
    Slann

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    I'll start.


    This is the most realistic of all of them. In my opinion it's an adequate way to handle violent action based stories but it doesn't allow as much depth. Whether the Lizardmen are the protagonists or the antagonists, the antagonist is just to provide conflict. That means almost all of your characterization is focused on the hopes, fears, successes and failures. If communication with the other side is this limited, this is not that different from a Man vs. Nature story. In fact, I would fighting Lizardmen in Lustria would feel like fighting against nature itself.


    You might still have violence but in this case, merely establishing communication becomes the conflict. It might not be the main conflict of the story, but establishing basic communication with the other side whomever they may be becomes one of the challenges the protagonist must overcome.


    If this is hand waved you basically have an author lazily trying to hand wave past the communication issue but I haven't seen anyone on L-O treat this lazily. If you have two telepathic characters talking, the author is basically telling you. "These are powerful beings who exist on a level that's beyond your understanding." That fits the bill with Slann and Daemons or gods and Old Ones.

    When you have a telepathic creature speaking to a non-telepath, it's an invasion of privacy at the very least. If not a violent violation of the mind. it also highlights the disparity of power. You can really tell the telepath is stooping to speak to this lowly worm because their own lowly words are too crude for one such as the telepath.


    I'm not sure this deserves it's own letter. I'm pretty sure I'm the only one who did it on L-O. Reading minds is BIG, so hopefully any use of this treats telepathy devices as the dangerous McGuffins they are.


    This is a pretty common staple of fantasy and sci-fit. It does not have as much potential for storytelling conflict around the communication itself (though you can make it a cornerstone of the story if you work at it.). It's a good way to quickly overcome the language barrier to allow in depth verbal interactions without taxing the reader's suspension of disbelief.


    Pretty much everything I said about Solution B applies here. If Bob reorganizing the lettering again (please don't!) I would put these adjacent. The only minor difference is given how so many people in a quasi-medieval setting are illiterate, this style of communication implies a slightly higher level of sophistication. Animals communicate with gestures, but they don't draw pictures. While the exact opposite is true in "Paranoia" I would say writing and pictures usually implies less violence and more understanding between the communicators.


    This is a good way to split the difference between the pros and cons of the others. It's realistic, because people learn new languages in the real world. If your story requires the characters to communicate clearly, make the lizards fluent. If your story requires misunderstanding make them hear or say something erroneously. You can build character by picking something telling for what was misspoke or miss-heard.


    The same stuff I said above applies here, but the Lizardmen are SLIGHTLY more likely to pick up warmblooded tongues than warmbloods are likely to pick up Saurian. You might have some odd High Elf or Dark Elf scholars that keep records from the times of the Old Ones but their Saurian would probably be unintelligible based on translations of translations of transcriptions of transcriptions where the original writers only had a tiny connection to Saurian.. I studied German for a number of years. One time I ran across a crew of Dutch. I thought "This sounds like German, but I can't understand what they are saying!" I imagine Skinks would feel the same way hearing Elf scholars of Hoeth try to speak in their specialty "dead" language.

    For the most part the outside world doesn't want to learn about the Lizardmen. They either want to leave them alone or steal their stuff. So far, except for Lord Renliss, every single non-Lizardmen who knows some Saurian is because at some point one of the First wanted to share their language, not because one of the Prodigal races wanted to learn it. The only real incentive to learn Saurian is to make a grab for the Lizardmen's power and lore, not treasure. That fits Lord Renliss to a "t." Also the Fimir in my old short story piece "Chameleons in the City of Mists" but Fimir aren't really "pathetic warmbloods" are they?


    They not only did this in Lord of the Rings, but they did it in Orson Scott Card's universe. So everyone has their own language, but they also have a common shared tongue. This is intrinsic to most D&D worlds and the Star Wars Galaxy.

    The Lord of the Rings universe, every race shares the same history and gods more or less. On Ender's Earth and the colonization that follows, Earth was basically ruled by one government and they needed a common language of the realm. Most D&D worlds lazily handwave Common into the setting. Star Wars initially used a lazy hand wave then they built up the metaplot to have most interplanetary travel spearheaded by Humans, who evolved on nearly adjacent star systems, Correlia, Alderaan, Chandrilla, and Coruscant. That's Humans are so wide spread and their language spread even further.

    The Warhammer Fantasy World is NOT unified. It's whole point is disparate cultures evolving independently and hating everyone else's guts. Every nation, every race has it's own gods, heck every tribe or city has it's own gods. There's not enough universal desire to communicate with all to put forth to work to implement a common tongue. Since in Age of Sigmar different people now live on entirely different planets I don't see a Common Tongue evolving very fast in the new status quo, everyone still hates everyone else. Though the interactions have become complex enough that more people are putting forth the effort to be multilingual, I just don't see the cooperation necessary to implement this.

    In general I'm biased against this solution. It's so unrealistic to me, I find magic more likely. I'm extra biased against this solution in WHF settings, but I don't want to tell anyone they are wrong. I can even dip my toe in the water here. A case can be made that a tiny number of things are universal. I could buy the idea that every race and nation in the WHF world has nodding mean yes and shaking one's head mean no. You can branch out from there. Pointed fingers, eyeball etc. There is probably enough of a common origin for all the various races that there are plenty of cognates. English says "cat,' German says "eine Katze." Going out further, English says "dog," German says "ein Hund." Okay so they don't sound alike, but you clearly hear "hound" right so it kind of makes sense. Against my wishes, Bob made "mahrlect" a universal swear word in his literary metaverse.


    I don't like this solution either BUT I like this better than a shared Common tongue everyone has a second language. If you have a common tongue, either people won't use it because they don't want to talk much or people will use it so much it replaces their original tongue. While not very realistic this is very convenient. If communication is not a concern you get to the action that much faster. I can't imagine K-E's pieces holding together if people had to stop to get translators every five minutes.

    It's also handy for short stories. Every sentence should either build character or advance the plot. In a short story, 100 words (or more) to explain how the characters are talking is just distracting noise. Likewise if you want to start a story with men talking around a campfire you probably want to skip "And then Ted built a pyramid of sticks and caught some tinder on a spark. After a ten minutes of work feeding successively larger sticks, they finally had enough of a flame to cook on." Start with the fire already there! Especially now that the consensus is pointing towards a preference. That's not to say imperfect communication cannot build character or advance a plot, I'm just saying it needs to be done carefully.
     
    Scalenex, Jun 5, 2016
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  11. Y'ttar Scaletail
    Troglodon

    Y'ttar Scaletail Well-Known Member

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    I've found the language barrier in the Warhammer World quite a challenge in the past. Skaven admittedly seem to have it easy since by being so spread out and having the scary ability to learn and adapt faster than most races, they often (at least their leaders or intellectuals) seem to gain a grasp of most languages (albeit usually haltingly, poorly accented, and with terrible grammar.) Though I will usually state what language the Skaven in question is trying to speak (Estalian, Bretonnian, Reikspiel, Orcish, Khazalid, e.t.c.) I wasn't sure what passes for human kingdoms and language in AoS, hence why it was just stated to be "human tongue" (i'd guess Reikspiel as it is the closest thing to a common tongue given the relative power of the Empire and the setting. However, this does lead to the question: why did my protagonist know "human tongue" in the first place? Heheheh.)

    Something I find odd is that there's never much mention on different accents in Skaven Queekish, despite their race having covered much of the Old World. I know some Eshinites have more Mandarin styled names, but it doesn't really seem to seep much into their speech. I guess my own Warlock Engineer Tkull (a tongue-in-cheek reference to the inventor of the seed drill and the late 60s folk rock band) is stated to be from Albion and pretty much is a sarcastic Malakai Makaisson who constantly irritates my Seer, but is both too difficult to be killed off and is too useful for the Seer to want to kill him (that and the two make great Bloodbowl-esque hosts!)

    Additionally, in another short story i've had a Chaos Dwarf speak a dark tongued Khazalid to his Hobgoblin servant to translate into Orcish for the Skaven translator to translate it into Queekish (mostly because the Dwarf wanted to annoy them after they tried to speak to him directly using a terrible excuse for Khazalid.) Surprisingly the translations seem to mostly hold up in the exchange, though the Hobgoblin does get confused by the term "breeders".

    But yes, for Lizzies I can imagine it's quite a challenge considering how distant they are from other civilisations in the Old World. AoS you have, I guess, the whole imparted knowledge from the Slann.
     
    Y'ttar Scaletail, Jun 5, 2016
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  12. spawning of Bob
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    spawning of Bob Well-Known Member

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    New info dump in the 3rd post in this thread.
     
    spawning of Bob, Jun 5, 2016
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  13. pendrake
    Skink Priest

    pendrake Well-Known Member

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    This has been a very interesting discussion. I don't recall anything written by any Great Wordsmiths from the Citadel (GW/Citadel) where they ever dealt with this issue much. It is hard to think of any possible means you have not covered so far. Very thorough.

    That said, I'd like to stake a claim to an unused letter of the alphabet.

    Solution P: What warm bloods? Whatsa warmblood?
    (There are no warmbloods in a story to speak to — it's worked in two out of two stories so far.)
     
    pendrake, Jun 5, 2016
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  14. Bowser
    Slann

    Bowser Third Spawning

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    Also no mention of protocol droids. Warhammer needs more C3P0s. Actually, it needs more HK47s. Meatbags.
     
    Bowser, Jun 5, 2016
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  15. pendrake
    Skink Priest

    pendrake Well-Known Member

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    It starts with just one language. This is the real world explanation or belief given for all human languages both by science/linguistics or by religion and folktale.

    In this fictional world (that has been blown to smithereens) the key difference is that there are races with extreme longevity. In order of presumed longevity:
    Slann
    Elves
    Other lesser lizards
    Dwarfs

    In the real world human languages morph over time due to the fleeting existence of each generation, but I think it would be / will be different if some speakers live for hundreds of years.

    Somebody mentioned Connery earlier. If digital media preserves Sean Connery's words for a thousand years will English cease to morph as rapidly as it has in the past? I could not understand an Anglish speaker from the year 1016 but in 2962 Connery's first line after Ursula Andress steps out of the surf might still be understood. (Dr. No 1962).
     
    pendrake, Jun 5, 2016
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  16. Fhanados
    Terradon

    Fhanados Well-Known Member

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    Oh wow I just realised that my stories DO have Lizardmen/non-Lizardmen interaction but I completely glossed over the details!

    My idea (and by "my idea" I mean "mostly stolen from other fan works") with Amazons is somewhere between Solution H and Solution I .They're essentially humans that are as close to the intended path set by the Old Ones as possible. They still venerate the Old Ones and have a similar social structure as Lizardmen but without the species and spawning determined caste system. They speak a variation of High Saurian, which is slightly more complex than what the Lizardmen speak due to humankind's inherent lack of handy crests and colour changing scales. To make up for this obvious flaw they've developed more unique words and new grammatical context for existing words for situations where a Skink might bob it's head with a 3/4 crest raise and 20 degree horizontal tilt (you said WHAT about my mother?) - but the foundations are still very much High Saurian so verbal conversation between Amazons and language-inclined Lizardmen is entirely possible.

    The negotiations with the Dwarves? Umm.... Skinks did it? I didn't really think it through but Solution G is the most likely fit. I've always imagined Skinks as the ones doing negotiations and whatnot since it doesn't make sense for a Saurus, a creature specifically created for warfare, to be sitting in a meeting. This is one reason that Zpakatax finds the negotiations with the Dwarves so testing. He's a warrior but also a tyrant. He won't let dealings with potential allies/enemies escape his scrutiny but at the same time such things are very contrary to his nature and therefore more frustrating to him than it would be to a Skink attendant.
     
    Fhanados, Jun 6, 2016
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  17. spawning of Bob
    Skar-Veteran

    spawning of Bob Well-Known Member

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    That would be because you take the time to explain, even if you don't really need to.

    Only 3 solutions away from your one, P for Pendrake. And I'm sure there was something being fought against in the Monument.

    Fixed

    Agreed

    I went back to see how it was done, and was prepared to hunt you down and ask you. So pleased you made something plausible up first.

    I've rejigged posts 1 and 3, and added categories I missed.

    Further discussion - the High Saurian Language as lovingly compiled seems to be more about jamming some Mesoamerican sounding words and spelling conventions together with some cool cultural analysis. I approve. By it's conventions, there are some vowel / consonant sounds which are never used which would go with LM having different vocal apparatus. I approve. All of the above probably doesn't fit with the lack of larynxs, soft palates and solid tongues, but what the hey - any fantasy naming convention that is different to other races is cool.

    Also, I think official GW fluff also separates the Slann, Skink and Saurus languages.
     
    spawning of Bob, Jun 6, 2016
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  18. Killer Angel
    Slann

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    What about AK47? ;)
     
    Killer Angel, Jun 6, 2016
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  19. Fhanados
    Terradon

    Fhanados Well-Known Member

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    You are correct. I'm not sure which army book(s) it's in, I only own the 6th and 7th edition ones (and they're safely tucked away in a storage shed an hour away from home) but I distinctly remember this.

    Skinks speak the more complex version, what we tend to call "High Saurian" although I'm not sure if it's ever officially called that. High Saurian is a spoken and written language that is somewhat translatable by scholars but there are no instances I know of in official background where a non-Lizardman speaks it. The link Bob posted above has a lot of good info on it, a decent amount of which seems semi-official at least. Because of the variety of skink lives it would includes words and concepts mostly equivalent to non-Saurian languages and would realistically be the language used for negotiations and other complex discussions (law suits, philosophy, scientific/magical theory, answering your spouse when she asks "what are you thinking about?" without using the word "Warhammer").

    Saurus warriors speak in an extremely simplified dialect that's developed specifically to fit their role as warriors and guardians. It's comprised of far fewer words than High Saurian and omits anything that's not related to their duties. This "Battle-Speak" (or Low Saurian) uses short sentences, often a single word which spoken in context, in certain situations can convey complex tactical manouvres thanks to the Saurus Warrior's intrinsic knowledge of battlefield tactics and predatory instincts. The same word could communicate entirely different strategies depending on the situation the Lizardmen find themselves in, their opponent, the tone and volume which the word is conveyed, or even the alignment of the stars in the heavens. Saurus still understand High Saurian but have no need of speaking it themselves. Skinks would have some understanding of Low Saurian, especially Skinks in charge of leading an army such as Priests or Chieftains but would lack much of the martial knowledge coded into their genetics that Saurus do.

    Kroxigor are an oddball. They understand a variation of Low Saurian that has less tactical complexity but includes words and phrases specific to their roles as laborers as well as combat. Whether they actually speak at all is a bit of an unknown - I can't think of any instance in official GW lore where a Kroxigor speaks.
     
    Fhanados, Jun 7, 2016
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  20. spawning of Bob
    Skar-Veteran

    spawning of Bob Well-Known Member

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    I would think that Slann intercommunication would be a semi telepathic affair born of very close brain affinity - like twins can develop their own language unintelligible to others. This makes for their actual utterances to skinks being hard to interpret if their speech doesn't follow normal conventions. This doesn't even count on their utterances being on a higher plane of meaning.

    They would be impatient with the effort of making themselves understood by lesser beings, given that their own communication is effortless.
     
    spawning of Bob, Jun 7, 2016
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