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8th Ed. Counter for HE Stardragon

Discussion in 'Lizardmen & Saurian Ancients Tactics' started by Mr Phat, Dec 14, 2013.

  1. Mr Phat
    Skink Chief

    Mr Phat 9th Age Army Support

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    the HE player in my group just got himself a dragon, and I am having my first game against
    Such a thing.

    I am sure he is going to play it as a Star and have an idea it will team up with a frostheart which he runs most games.

    In a game of 2400 with no other restricts than no SC's,
    What are you guys tips?

    Ive thought of Stegadons with sharpend horns, and skink clouds too (i know its 3+ armour)
    It just dosnt seem too reliable.

    Im thinking of an oldblood with stegahelm, Gw and armour of destiny to cover the backlines and then try to hold him up.
    It seems as it COULD work, but im not confident.
     
  2. Pinktaco
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    Pinktaco Vessel of the Old Ones Staff Member

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    Armour of Destiny + dawnstone is superior? How about a character bus, 4 scar vets. Plop savage beast of horror on them. It'll be expensive though, but so is the dragon.
     
  3. RipperDerek
    Kroxigor

    RipperDerek Active Member

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    Cowboy with armor of destiny and dawnstone will kill it...eventually. Character bus will kill it much faster, but is a much bigger point investment.

    Battle Slann works if you can unforge the magic weapon the rider probably has. Even if you can't, the prince isn't actually that scary, and the Battle Slann will usually still be the favorite to win every round of combat after the first (assuming the prince has the Star Lance). The Slann is slow, so this will probably only work if he charges it.

    A large block of kroxigor can take it down, but keep the Slann near, especially for the first round of combat.

    The problem with all of the above is getting the unit engaged with it. It flies, so it's hard to pin down. Also, the Battle Slann doesn't work if you tarpit it, because it will get the combat rez it needs by thunderstomping your unit. Edit: Actually, I hadn't thought of this, but I guess you could challenge it with the Slann, he can't refuse, and then that wouldn't be a problem...

    Searing doom is pretty good against it, and with a decent roll on the boosted version you might get lucky and kill the prince, or bring the dragon into the danger zone where a couple of lucky skink shots can take it down. But while it's worth trying, it's not reliable enough to count on it.
     
  4. Sleboda
    Troglodon

    Sleboda Active Member

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    Just go with the skinks. Yeah, 3+ armor is nice, but you are bypassing its toughness with poison, so it doesn't take many shots to nail it.

    I recently took on a Chaos Dwarf army that had the K'Wtf Destroyer in it. My skinks did 4 wounds to it with poison despite it having a 4+ ward, then it ate my entire 40-man Saurus unit in combat, after which the skinks shot it again and killed it.

    Big nasties hate poison.
     
  5. Pinktaco
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    Need more skinks <.<
     
  6. RipperDerek
    Kroxigor

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    You need 189 skink shots to take down a star dragon (on average). I don't recommend trying this route.

    K'daai destroyers and Greater Demons are different from star dragons: they have less armor, they have fewer wounds, and they don't have a rider. Taking down a K'daai Destroyer only takes 72 shots by comparison.
     
  7. Mr Phat
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    thanks for the tip you guys. I think ill leave a battle rep on this match when its over.

    Also have my first mirror-match ever today, dont have any idea what to expect.
     
  8. Mr Phat
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    the battle got too complicated for me to remember (a Moderate victory around 300 pts to my opponent)

    but bottomline:

    a Regular stegadon and a Skrox unit (35 Skink / 4 kroxigor slightly worn down from shooting)

    held up the Dragon (front) AND a frostheart phoenix (in the flank) for 4 combat rounds
    The Steg died in the 3rd round and the skrox were losing and would have broken wasnt it for an EXACT rank (to the model) kept them steadfast in 4th and final round (game ended).

    I didnt figure out how to deal with him effictively, but I did get another glimpse off how truly awesome High Magic synergy really is:

    "Fiery Convocation on your White Lions!"
    "My lions has banner of the world dragon!"
    "Arcane unforging on your Banner!"
    "........My lions are F'd!!"


    I had already planned to go with the Searing doom against the dragon, but forgot that his lord had dragon armour...which means 2+ ward against flaming ..which searing doom is.... which meant that everything that hit him would be close to useless.
    This made me Swap 2 spells for Spirit leech and Searing doom, planning to leech his lord (2 wounds left at the time) with my LD10 slann, and then follow up with the big Searing doom for maximum effect.


    HERE IS A QUESTION TO YOU WHO READS

    What should I have done in this situation?:

    my slann is in range to the Dragon

    the lord on top has
    +2 ward against flaming attacks.
    and had already picked off his charmed shield, and other saving item, meaning: free entrance to his wounds.

    slann has Spirit Leech, Searing doom and all high magic minus Fiery Convocation and Tempest.

    winds of magic rolls 7.

    As I was hoping for at least 8 so I wouldnt have to 1-dice the leech, I had to think.
    a failed 1-dice could mean I lost the entire round and probably only chance to kill the dragon as it would be in close combat next turn.

    I chose to 6-dice the big searing doom first and hope for the best, and then use the final dice for a lucky roll on the leech, even though I knew the other way around would be more effective (yet more risky)

    what option would you have chosen here?

    -

    I roll'd horribly on the searing btw....so I never found out if it mattered. Next turn the dragon clashed my stegadon to the face.
     
  9. Pinktaco
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    In which City do you play?
     
  10. rychek
    Troglodon

    rychek Active Member

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    The Star Dragon is a tough foe to fell. Especially when there is a Frostheart sapping your strength. What comes to mind as a counter is a ridden Carnosaur (or two!) with Hand of Glory to get the WS high enough to have a hope of hitting. Multi-Wound D3 will make each successful wound that much more potent.
     
  11. Mr Phat
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    Aarhus, mostly friendly games.
     
  12. Lizardmatt
    Troglodon

    Lizardmatt New Member

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    You've got 7 dice, but how many does your opponent have?
    If he's at 4 or 5 dispel dice, I would 2 dice the spirit Leech first, then 5 dice the big searing doom.
    You'd need to roll a 3 on two dice for the Leech, and a 16 on 5 dice for the big Searing.

    If my opponent had 6 dispel dice, I'd 6 die searing doom and then 1 die spirit leech.


    I've often found that the best solution for many monsters is a huge unit of skink cohorts.
    50 skinks is 250 points, and will be steadfast for quite a while. If you can tie up a 600 point monster all game with 250 points, you're going to come out ahead.
    It's kind of amazing that $70 solves most problems (2 boxes of skinks).

    -Matt
     
  13. Mr Phat
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    As I recall it was a roll of 5-2 leaving him with five, but he channeled one.

    He had two lvl2 mages, so it put me ahead in lvls.
     
  14. Pinktaco
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    The biggest threat is the dragon, right? So I assume you could've used spirit leech on the dragon as well.

    There's also Pit of Shades (I2). Or how does that work on ridden monsters?
     
  15. olderplayer
    Chameleon Skink

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    I play both armies. I do not run a star dragon simply because a boosted amber spear or cannon hit will hurt it enough to limit is effectiveness and risk taking enough wounds to put the lord on foot and a lucky hit on the lord with a cannon ball or stone thrower can kill the lord outright about one third of the time or leave the lord vulnerable one-sixth of the time. Also, a lord on a star dragon does not allow for the big lvl 4 with book of hoeth and high magic to gain all the ward saves on my big white lion unit. Without a lvl 4 and book of hoeth, the high elf magic offesne and defense in significantly reduced in effectiveness.

    After two lvl 2's and a BSB+ phoenix + white lions with BOTWD, he should only have point left to meet his core tax.

    It is not a good matchup for your army due to your lack of armour penetrating shooting and his high armour saves on the white lions to non-magical shooting and star dragon to yourr S3 shooting. It takes almost 30 poison shots to get 1 wound on a star dragon and maybe you get a lucky wound on the lord with the shots allocated to him through his armour and ward save. On the other hand, each wound on a star dragon can be worth between 70 and 100 points if you can accumulate enough of them to make the lord ultimately on foot and run him down. If I were him, I'd take archers to clear chaff your chass and give him long range counterfire for core. Seaguard are more expensive but don't do as well and spearmen, while a bit cheaper, don't do much. His archers, which are the typical core, have range on your units and can kill with S3. If he takes silver helms in core, then he will have a more limited number of models but a lot hard to kill.

    If he runs seaguard or archerr core, screen your units from shooting and the dragon and phoenix with skink skirmishers that double as chaff/redirectors for the phoenix and dragon and the white lions. With long range and stand and shoot or march and shoot, blowpipes will either end up not double shooting or risk losing poison. Thus, I would go javelins which alse gives you a boost on your armour save against his shooting.

    His weakness is the lvl 2's should have less ability to push through spells against a Slann at lvl 4. and less ability to stop your magic. For magic, skink priests with beasts is one solution. You have -1 to cast when targetting the star dragon and the phoenix and amber spear boosted is a problem for his army. Also, wyssan's gives you boosted strength and savage beast or horrors givens boosted +3S and +3a on a charactrer within 12". Curse of anraheir will hurt his archers early and help reduce the effectiveness of his dragon lord and phoenix by reducing the hit rate and maybe causing a failed dangerous terrain check.

    Your slann has a lot of options. Loremaster high magic, which sounds like you took, should give you the ability to do arcane unforging on his dragon lord and his BOTWD (at least for now). Do not discount the value of a tempest or fiery convocation on his core unitsif archers, seaguard or spearmen will take down a lot and the -1 to hit on the archers goes a long way. Use apotheosis to try to keep your steg alive and hiting back in combat or else it will lose too quickly to the star dragon and even the phoenix.

    This is one of those times when it might pay to put poison on larger skink cohorts. Running them as a horde to max shooting and max attacks back works simply because you will remain steadfast unti the unit is less than 5 models against a pheonix or star dragon. The lord on star dragon will chew through skink cohorts fast with six attacks and thunderstomps, but one out of every 16 poison attacks back will cause an unsaved wound on the star dragon both when in combat. By contrast one out of 50 poison attacks targetting the lord will actually wound him. Thirty poison shots hitting on 6's, will cause on average 1.11 wounds to the dragon and .14 wounds to the lord unsaved. Thus, it is massed fire and poisoned compbat accumulating wounds over time that kills the star dragon lord. The phoenix is a bit different, if hitting on 6's poison shooting will cause 1.48 unssaved wounds per 20 shots and hitting on 5's with posion a total of 1.73 wounds per 20 atttacks. The phoenix, unless if rolls high on thundersomp, will often leave you with enough skinks in a 10 skink unit to fight back and flee. That allows them to both shoot and maybe in combat get wounds on the star dragon and the phoenix (T6). S2 skinks will struggle in combat because of the number of attacks, stomps, and high WS on dargon, lord and phoenix but you roll to hit and wound on 6 with poison anyway. The point is that trading lots of xx point skinks for poison wounds on the dragon and phoenix is a fair trade off.

    I would consider an oldblood cowboy with a great weapon as a finisher once the dragon or phoenix got tied up in combat. The S7 (even if reduced by 1) will wound and cut through the armour of the phoenix even with the -1 S and the phoenix will not get its stomp. The oldblood will lose to a star dragon due to the high WS and 6 attacks at S7 cutting through most of the armour save. Although a 5+ armous save and 4+ ward, will likely keep the oldblood alive long enough to hit back on the dragon and maybe get in one or two wounds on the dragon or the lord.
     
  16. olderplayer
    Chameleon Skink

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    Pit of shades scatters and is not a signature spell but given the footprint will usually hit the dragon. If it hits the dragon, both the mount and the rider will separately test and separately be removed if failed. The range on the spell is 24" (which applies to the center of the hole, so you actually get 25.5" to hit if no scatter). When I played shadow lore on my lvl 4 dark elf with sac dagger, I'd miama a unit and then pit of shades it if I could. Used to help deal with things like warriors of chaos chosen before the new WoC book and I had success with it against a white lion horde recently (always cast the boosted version to cut M, WS and I and BS) so much so that he had to keep it back to avoid my witch elf unit tearing it apart. Shadow is an interesting option for the Slann because withering will make it a lot easier to wound the star dragon and phoenix with TG and enfeebling can cut down on the wounds you will take if you run saurus or TG. Miasma can slow down the white lions and/or reduce their combat effectiveness and really hurt shooting of archers and seaguard. Mindrazor will turn a unt of saurus or TG into quick and effective killers of the phoenix and star dragon but even S5 skinks will not do much to a star dragon at T7 and not do much to a frost phoenix at T6 (other than cut the armour save) with -1S on the skinks.

    Spirit leach is not very effective on the dragon lord model with LD 10 on the lord; you won't do anything most of the time and the hits will ranodmize between the mount and the character. Plus the range is only 12" and 24" boosted with no increase in hits.

    Searing doom will randomize between the lord and the dragon. Hits allocated to the dragon (2/3) will wound the dragon 2/3 of the time. Hits allocated on the lord (assuming 1+ or 2+ AS and dragon armour) will wound 5/6's of the time but he will suffer an unsaved wound on only 5/36 of hits.
     
  17. Pinktaco
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    If you have high magic and decides to forget a spell can you then roll for a new spell just with one dice or four dice?
     
  18. olderplayer
    Chameleon Skink

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    One dice. You forget the spell and choose the common lore you want the new spell from and roll one die to see what spell you get.
     
  19. rantapanda
    Kroxigor

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    ive been thinking about this matchup for some time as well now..
    after reading above posts, the thing is that we dont have a counter against a star dragon.
    we dont have cannons, you can tie it up with skinks but they will get pummeled, poison is not enough, this is also the one monster where poison shooting isnt enough either, stegs dont hurt it, scarnosaur will die, oldblood will fall, group of kroxigors will not survive (btw kroxes are good against the phoenix).

    now magic is not something to rely on, but shadow .. from all of the above i think thats our best bet, not good, but its something.

    someone posted an awesome idea against the star dragon, was it lizardmatt, im not sure, im not sure on which topic it was either. anyway its awesome and hilarious. and it needs lots of luck. you get in melee with the stardragon with carnosaur. challenge! the carno will survive a round of combat.. then you hit back, carnosaur hits the rider, hopefully kills him, multiple wounds + overkill are counted towards CR... count up CR and you win. hopefully. then your looping carno will run the running stardragon down. hopefully. : D it would be amazing if this would work in a game. i did the math months ago,.. i dont remember how reliant this is, not very at best, but if u get close with the carno this is your best bet. otherwise SD will just tear our Carno apart.

    now one way to kill this fellow is just clusterfuck it i guess. OB, carno?, a couple of ancient stegs in, some magic, some poison shootings combined.. perhaps... (no sauruses for to love of god though)
     
  20. Mr Phat
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    im not sure I agree with you :p

    a carnosaur hits on 5's, yes, but it wounds on 4's and does multiple wounds.
    if you have a vet on the back with a great weapon he hits on 4's and also wound on 4's
    but negate its armour with a -4 modifier.

    This guy

    Oldblood
    dawnstone
    armour of destiny 4++
    GW
    Cold one

    have a very decent change of not failing.
    against S7 attacks he will have 5+ armour with a re-roll and a 4++ after that, and he WONT take stomps as he is cavalry.

    he hit on 4's, wound on 4's
    He WILL pummel the elf-lord and then he WILL continue to kill the dragon in the following rounds.

    a bunch of kroxigors
    hits on 5's and wounds on 4's which is decent when thinking that the dragon will recieve
    9 attacks from the front + predatory fighter
    and 9 attacks from the back

    thats 18 S7 attacks + the 1 or 2 predatory attacks.

    The dragon has 6 attacks and can at max kill 2 krox's each turn.
    This matchup is also not a given win, but it sure as H aint a bad thing to send at it.


    Magic
    Shadow or Death indeed, the thing has I2. If you get of the rider somehow the thing will cry facing a pit or sun.
     

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