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AoS The anvil of apotheosis

Discussion in 'Seraphon Discussion' started by Canas, Aug 19, 2020.

  1. Canas
    Slann

    Canas Ninth Spawning

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    Anyone else dissapointed by the anvil of apotheosis? I've been looking at it and the internal balance is all over the place. Just looking at the templates for the various factions you can easily spot massive discrepancies:
    • Grots are the single worst 3-point template, with only the skeleton having 1 worse stat (movement, the skeleton is still better in every other aspect), every other template has better or equal stats.
    • Skink costs 4 points, yet it has a worse stat-line than the 3 point heroes (only it's movement is good, aside from movement its basicly a grot )
    • In general the template stats do not appear to follow any logic based on their point-costs. A dragon oger is "only" 7 points more expensive than a grot, but upgrading a grot to have the same stats would cost you 13 points.
    • Stuff like the mounted beast upgrade does not take into account the stats your hero gets from their template, which means a skink pays 8 points for 2 wounds and some attacks, while a skeleton would also get 4" extra movement for the same cost
    • There's no upgrades for extra spellcasts, prayers, command abilities, which is rather a dissapointment
    • There's only 2, fairly basic, prayers & command abilities available (on the other hand there's 4 spells and 3 of those are actually quite interesting)
    • several of the weapons are just flat out worse than others:
      • Sword: 1" 3/3+/4+/-/1 costs 1 point
      • Axe: 1" 3/4+/3+/-1/1 costs 1 point
        Why would I ever take a sword?
    it's just kind of all over the place.

    I wanted to see if I could homebrew something that'd take out the worst of it, especially adding some prayers and the like for some variation. But the basic templates are already such a mess that this is ridiculously difficult. So now I'm simply trying to figure out what can be used to explain this. As a result I have the following questions:

    1. Why do a skink & grot have such terrible templates compared to the others with the same point cost? What is supposed to make up for their lack of stats? Is there an assumed powerboost from allegiance abilities or something I'm missing?
    2. What is the logic behind a template costing X points? A saurus having 6 wounds, a 4+ save and 5" move is similar to a Mordant with 6 wounds a 5+ save and 4" move. Both +1 to save and +1" to move costs 2 points so these two being 6 points is fine they're fairly comparable. But why is a saurus only 3 points more expensive than afformentioned grot? The saurus has 2 extra wounds, +2 to saves and a better bravery. Based on their own upgrade system the difference in points should be larger.Similarly, why is a dragon oger only 7 points more expensive than the grot when it should be 13 points?
    Anyone have any ideas? Or has this simply been such a rush-job that even as a framework to further homebrew upon it isn't all that usefull?
     
    Imrahil and LizardWizard like this.
  2. Erta Wanderer
    OldBlood

    Erta Wanderer Well-Known Member

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    well a saurus can't be either a wizard or a priest putting down it's job potential by quite a bit that and foot hero stats aren't really what makes them good. another thing it might be is that goblins do not benefit nearly as much from the support options that anvil provideds hence cheaper then skinks who do.
    or we can simply understand that under normal circumstances GW is often shoddy at their job and with the current 40K thing distracting them its worse then normal
     
  3. ILKAIN
    Skink Chief

    ILKAIN Well-Known Member

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    I vote this.
     
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  4. Canas
    Slann

    Canas Ninth Spawning

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    Although that might explain why the skink is relativly expensive, as especially the spells are relativly good for us, but that doesn't explain why the grot just as expensive as the aelf who's literally just better in every way. Or any of the other point discrepancies.


    Quite possibly, but even by GW standards this is halfassed. They could at least have made the templates consistent with their own upgrade tables. Isn't that kind of the bare minimum?
     
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  5. ChapterAquila92
    Skar-Veteran

    ChapterAquila92 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, the Anvil isn't something I'd consider going to for matched play, as much as it'd be nice to see be viable.

    A while back I fiddled around with how to best approximate pre-existing Seraphon hero warscrolls using the Anvil for comparison. Back then I didn't really give a good breakdown as to how I arrived at some of the results, not to mention my initial count likely being off, so I'll do my best to do sort it out better here with the saurus heroes for now.

    All annotations in square parentheses are made under the assumption that you can reverse-engineer the point-buy system to "buy back" those points.

    Battletome Entry: 110pts
    Move 5" | Wounds 7 | Save 3+ | Bravery 8
    Melee:
    - Celestite Maul: 1" | 3 | 4+ | 3+ | -1 | D3
    - Celestite Warblade: 1" | 5 | 3+ | 3+ | - | 1
    - Celestite Warspear: 2" | 4 | 3+ | 3+ | - | 1
    - Celestite Greatblade: 1" | 3 | 4+ | 3+ | -1 | 2
    - Fearsome Jaws: 1" | 1 | 4+ | 3+ | - | 1
    Abilities:
    - Cold Ferocity (exploding dice on 6s to hit)
    - Wrath of the Seraphon (+1 to hit for selected friendly saurus unit within 18")

    Anvil Equivalent: 140pts/[100pts]+Celestite Weapon
    Saurus (60pts)
    Move 5" | Wounds 6+1 | Save 4++1 | Bravery 8 (+30pts)
    Melee:
    - Celestite Maul (Axe): 1" | 3 | 4+ | 3+ | -1 | 1+1 (+30pts)
    - Celestite Warblade (Sword): 1" | 3+2 | 3+ | 4++1 | - | 1 (+70pts)
    - Celestite Warspear (Spear): 2" | 3+1 | 4++1 | 4++1 | - | 1 (+70pts)
    - Celestite Greatblade (Hammer): 1" | 2+1 | 4+ | 3+ | -1 | 2 (+30pts)
    - Fearsome Jaws (Improvised Weapon): 1" | 3[-2] | 4+ | 4++1 | - | 1 (+20pts)/[-20pts]
    Abilities:
    - Cold Ferocity (Frenzy) (exploding dice on 6s to hit) (+30pts)
    - Wrath of the Seraphon (Lead the Attack) (+1 to hit for selected friendly unit within 18") (+0pts)
    Battletome Entry: 250pts
    Move 10"/ | Wounds 12 | Save 4+ | Bravery 8
    Ranged:
    - Sunbolt Gauntlet: 18" | D6 | 3+ | 4+ | -1 | 1
    Melee:
    - Sunstone Spear: 2" | 3 | 3+ | 3+ | -1 | 3
    - Clawed Forelimbs: 2" | 2 | 3+/ | 3+ | - | 2
    - Massive Jaws: 2" | 3 | 4+ | 3+ | -1 | 5/
    Abilities:
    - Blazing Sunbolts (+1 to wound rolls with Sunbolt Gauntlet vs CHAOS DAEMONS)
    - Blood Frenzy (can run and charge after slaying at least one model in game)
    - Cold Ferocity (exploding dice on 6s to hit)
    - Pinned Down (+1 to hit with Massive Jaws vs models with <=7 wounds)
    - Terror (-1 bravery to enemies within 3")
    - Wrath of the Seraphon (+1 to hit for selected friendly saurus unit within 18")

    Anvil Equivalent: 490pts/[420pts]
    Saurus (60pts)
    Carnosaur (Gargantuan Beast) (+150pts)
    Move 10"/ | Wounds 14[-2] | Save 4+ | Bravery 8 (+0pts)/[-20pts]
    Ranged:
    - Sunbolt Gauntlet (Bow): 18" | 2+1 | 4++1 | 4+ | -+1 | 2[-1] (+80pts)/[+60pts]
    Melee:
    - Sunstone Spear (Spear): 2" | 3 | 4++1 | 4++1 | -+1 | 1+2 (+110pts)
    - Clawed Forelimbs (Claws): 2" | 6/+1 | 4++1 | 3+ | -1[-1] | 2 (+40pts)/[+20pts]
    - Massive Jaws (Maw): 2" | 2+1 | 3+[-1] | 3+ | -2 | 4/ (+10pts)/[+0pts]
    Abilities:
    - Cold Ferocity (Frenzy) (exploding dice on 6s to hit) (+30pts)
    - Terror (-1 bravery to enemies within 3") (+10pts)
    - Wrath of the Seraphon (Lead the Attack) (+1 to hit for selected friendly unit within 18") (+0pts)
    Battletome Entry: 110pts
    Move 8" | Wounds 7 | Save 4+ | Bravery 8
    Melee:
    - Celestite Warpick: 1" | 3 | 3+ | 3+ | -1 | 1
    - Fearsome Jaws: 1" | 1 | 4+ | 3+ | - | 1
    - Snapping Jaws: 1" | 1 | 3+ | 4+ | - | 1
    Abilities:
    - Cold Ferocity (exploding dice on 6s to hit)
    - Saurian Savagery (grant friendly unit within 18" additional hit on unmodified 6 to hit)

    Anvil Equivalent: 230pts/[150pts]
    Saurus (60pts)
    Cold One (Mounted Beast) (+80pts)
    Move 8"[-1"] | Wounds 8[-1] | Save 4+ | Bravery 8 (+0pts)/[-30pts]
    Melee:
    - Celestite Warpick (Axe): 1" | 3 | 4++1 | 3+ | -1 | 1 (+30pts)
    - Fearsome Jaws (Improvised Weapon): 1" | 3[-2] | 4+ | 4++1 | - | 1 (+20pts)/[-20pts]
    - Claws: 1" | 2 | 5+ | 5+ | - | 1
    - Snapping Jaws (Maw): 1" | 1 | 4++1 | 3+[-1] | -1 | D3 (+10pts)/[+0pts]
    Abilities:
    - Cold Ferocity (Frenzy) (exploding dice on 6s to hit) (+30pts)
    - Wrath of the Seraphon (Lead the Attack) (+1 to hit for selected friendly unit within 18") (+0pts)
    Battletome Warscroll: 210pts
    Move 10/" | Wounds 12 | Save 4+ | Bravery 8
    Melee:
    - Celestite Warblade: 1" | 6 | 3+ | 3+ | - | 1
    - Celestite Warspear: 2" | 6 | 3+ | 3+ | - | 1
    - Celestite Greatblade: 1" | 3 | 4+ | 3+ | -1 | 2
    - Clawed Forelimbs: 2" | 2 | 3+/ | 3+ | - | 2
    - Massive Jaws: 2" | 3 | 4+ | 3+ | -1 | 5/
    Abilities:
    - Blood Frenzy (can run and charge after slaying at least one model in game)
    - Cold Ferocity (exploding dice on 6s to hit)
    - Pinned Down (+1 to hit with Massive Jaws vs models with <=7 wounds)
    - Terror (-1 bravery to enemies within 3")
    - Saurian Savagery (grant friendly unit within 18" additional hit on unmodified 6 to hit)

    Anvil Equivalent: 300pts/[250pts]+Celestite Weapon
    Saurus (60pts)
    Carnosaur (Gargantuan Beast) (+150pts)
    Move 10"/ | Wounds 14[-2] | Save 4+ | Bravery 8 (+0pts)/[-20pts]
    Melee:
    - Celestite Warblade (Sword): 1" | 3+3 | 3+ | 4++1 | - | 1 (+90pts)
    - Celestite Warspear (Spear): 2" | 3+3 | 4++1 | 4++1 | - | 1 (+110pts)
    - Celestite Greatblade (Hammer): 1" | 2+1 | 4+ | 3+ | -1 | 2 (+30pts)
    - Clawed Forelimbs (Claws): 2" | 6/+1 | 4++1 | 3+ | -1[-1] | 2 (+40pts)/[+20pts]
    - Massive Jaws (Maw): 2" | 2+1 | 3+[-1] | 3+ | -2 | 4/ (+10pts)/[+0pts]
    Abilities:
    - Cold Ferocity (Frenzy) (exploding dice on 6s to hit) (+30pts)
    - Terror (-1 bravery to enemies within 3") (+10pts)
    - Wrath of the Seraphon (Lead the Attack) (+1 to hit for selected friendly unit within 18") (+0pts)
    Battletome Warscroll: 130pts
    Move 5" | Wounds 7 | Save 3+ | Bravery 8
    Melee:
    - Celestite Warmace: 1" | 6 | 3+ | 3+ | -1 | D3
    - Fearsome Jaws: 1" | 1 | 4+ | 3+ | - | 1
    Abilities:
    - Primal Rage (exploding dice on unmodified 6s to hit and wound)
    - Scent of Weakness (+1 to wound for selected friendly saurus unit within 12")

    Anvil Equivalent: 200pts/[160pts]
    Saurus (60pts)
    Move 5" | Wounds 6+1 | Save 4++1 | Bravery 8 (+30pts)
    Melee:
    - Celestite Warmace (Axe): 1" | 3+3 | 4++1 | 3+ | -1 | 1 (+90pts)
    - Fearsome Jaws (Improvised Weapon): 1" | 3[-2] | 4+ | 4++1 | - | 1 (+20pts)/[-20pts]
    Abilities:
    - Primal Rage (Frenzy) (exploding dice on 6s to hit) (+30pts)
    - Scent of Weakness (Lead the Attack) (+1 to hit for selected friendly unit within 18") (+0pts)
    Battletome Warscroll: 110pts
    Move 5" | Wounds 7 | Save 3+ | Bravery 8
    Melee:
    - Star-Stone Mace: 1" | 3 | 3+ | 3+ | -1 | D3
    - Fearsome Jaws: 1" | 1 | 4+ | 3+ | - | 1
    Abilities:
    - Cold Ferocity (exploding dice on unmodified 6s to hit)
    - Selfless Protectors (slann may slough off wounds and mortal wounds to EW within 3" on 2+)
    - Prime Guardian (+1 to hit for selected friendly saurus guard unit within 18")

    Anvil Equivalent: 190pts/[150pts]
    Saurus (60pts)
    Move 5" | Wounds 6+1 | Save 4++1 | Bravery 8 (+30pts)
    Melee:
    - Star-Stone Mace (Axe): 1" | 3 | 4++1 | 3+ | -1 | 1+1 (+50pts)
    - Fearsome Jaws (Improvised Weapon): 1" | 3[-2] | 4+ | 4++1 | - | 1 (+20pts)/[-20pts]
    Abilities:
    - Cold Ferocity (Frenzy) (exploding dice on 6s to hit) (+30pts)
    - Prime Guardian (Lead the Attack) (+1 to hit for selected friendly unit within 18") (+0pts)
    Battletome Warscroll: 140pts
    Move 5" | Wounds 6 | Save 4+ | Bravery 8
    Melee:
    - Celestite Warpick: 1" | 3 | 3+ | 3+ | -1 | 1
    - Fearsome Jaws: 1" | 1 | 4+ | 3+ | - | 1
    Abilities:
    - Celestial Conduit (+1 to casting rolls within 12", +6" to spell range)
    - Revivifying Energies (negate wounds and mortal wounds inflicted on friendly Seraphon units within 12" on unmodified 6)

    Anvil Equivalent: 120pts/[100pts]
    Saurus (60pts)
    Move 5" | Wounds 6 | Save 4+ | Bravery 8 (+0pts)
    Melee:
    - Celestite Warpick (Axe): 1" | 3 | 4++1 | 3+ | -1 | 1 (+30pts)
    - Fearsome Jaws (Improvised Weapon): 1" | 3[-2] | 4+ | 4++1 | - | 1 (+20pts)/[-20pts]
    Abilities:
    - Revivifying Energies (Shield of Faith) (negate wounds and mortal wounds inflicted on friendly Seraphon units within 12" on unmodified 6)* (+0pts)
    - Battle Standard Bearer (Gains TOTEM keyword) (+10pts)

    *Shield of Faith can only be taken as an acolyte, which Saurus cannot be.
     
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