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8th Ed. The BEST close combat units in all of Warhammer.

Discussion in 'Other Armies Discussion' started by NIGHTBRINGER, Sep 27, 2020.

  1. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

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    +1
     
  2. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    They are a solid unit that is extremely well-costed. Not as flashy as the Mournfang or Skullcrushers at first glance, but they are much cheaper. It is worth mentioning however, that both the Mournfang and the Skullcrushers have charge related bonuses that were not utilized in the tournament. Is it enough of a difference to make a difference, you be the judge!
     
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  3. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    upload_2021-5-18_23-27-34.png

    upload_2021-5-18_23-28-11.png

    upload_2021-5-18_23-28-37.png

    Well it would seem as though the final round of the tournament is full of fun little surprises. The Witch Elves win what was an extremely hard fought contest (needing their standard and rank bonus in the first round to gain a drawn combat and retain their frenzy).

    The Chaos Trolls and Witch Elves will finish level with one another in the final standings and await the results of the Skullcrushers vs. K'daai Destroyer matchup. If the Skullcrushers end up with a regular loss, as most are predicting, they will end up tied with the Witch Elves and Trolls for joint custody of 4th place. Mathematically the Skullcrushers could still theoretically finish anywhere from 3rd through 6th.

    Coming up next:
    • the final match of the tournament: K'daai Destroyer vs. Skullcrushers of Khorne
    • a compilation of tournament stats and figures :)
    • some closing questions for everyone to consider
    • rest for the NIGHTBRINGER (did anyone actually think I'd get through all 120 matchups of the tournament?)
     
  4. Killer Angel
    Slann

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    Well well well... Don’t rest yet, @NIGHTBRINGER , with such a balance the last fight is needed! :D
     
  5. Imrahil
    Slann

    Imrahil Thirtheenth Spawning

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    Well that is a surprisingly nice result :) Though the Witch Elves suffered severely.
    The lowest they could end up now is fifth, so a rather good result. It seems my random pick at the start of this fun 'little' contest was not that bad ;)

    I thought the list was chronological :pompus:

    Grrr, Imrahil
     
  6. Imrahil
    Slann

    Imrahil Thirtheenth Spawning

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    On the other hand, my pick for last place ended up higher in the standing than my pick for first place :oops::D

    Grrr, Imrahil
     
  7. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

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    Wow, that was a close one.

    Genuinely I thought that the Regen would do it for the Trolls but their lack of standard bearer/musician is what killed them off here.

    (I do wonder what instrument the Witch Elves play... Bone castanets? ;) )

    Well, just goes to show that the DE's are pretty OP (since Witche Elves are one of their core choices). If it wasn't for the plethora of obvious counters, they would be pretty ridiculous.

    Looking forwards to the final match-ups!

    And of course the match analyses from the chief commentator @NIGHTBRINGER !!!

    (I knew you'd finish the matches... And I knew I'd keep asking until you did!)
     
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  8. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    It is good sir!

    Lucky for the trolls that the Witch Elves did not have a musician, or the trolls would have been broken after the first round.

    You were instrumental in keeping the thread alive!
     
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  9. The Great White Lizard
    Chameleon Skink

    The Great White Lizard Well-Known Member

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    Wow, that WE v Trolls match... so close. If the WE didn't have a banner, they would have lost frenzy and been crushed. It's extremely impressive that you managed to finish off all 15 rounds @NIGHTBRINGER , and us 8th players owe you a great debt.
     
  10. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

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    +5 for this one!

    Totally true!
     
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  11. Imrahil
    Slann

    Imrahil Thirtheenth Spawning

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    Totally agree, also the non 8th players ;)

    Grrr, Imrahil
     
  12. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    Well, you guys have all helped out tremendously. The feedback, the analysis, the commentary and of course checking over my calculations. Only a single match to go... but I'll also have to set up some stats and figures.
     
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  13. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    I had this little clip planned for our epic final matchup....



    ...I suppose it is fitting. The last match of the tournament turns out not to be a particularly clean affair. Let's see what you guys think....
    @Lizards of Renown @Killer Angel @Imrahil @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl @The Great White Lizard

    upload_2021-5-20_0-41-29.png
    upload_2021-5-20_0-42-52.png

    I'm sure you can spot the problem. The Destroyer is sitting on exactly 0.5 wounds. Not 0.49999 or 0.50001, but 0.500000000 on the button. Mathematical convention is to round this up to 1 (meaning the K'daai survives and wins) and as expected that is the way Microsoft Excel rounds it. However, in reality, 0.5 is literally a coin toss. The Destroyer is just as likely to die (resulting in a draw) as it is to survive (resulting in a victory). A "Schrodinger's Destroyer" if you will. This may have come up a few times in the middle of matches when determining how many models are left to strike, but not on the final and decisive wound as far as I can remember. We've had a few close calls, but never a pure coin toss decision.

    On the side of the Skullcrushers, we can say that they are short 3 points (not much, but something), however on the side of the Destroyer we can point to the fact that the Skullcrushers were given the benefit of the doubt in passing their break test needing a 7 (as per tournament rules).

    Obviously if the Skullcrushers were given a musician (which changes the point differential from a -3 skullcrusher deficit to a +7 skullcrusher advantage), the Skullcrushers not only avoid losing, but actually win the fight. Of course, by tournament rules, we wouldn't go that route because we try to balance as close as possible, and as discussed before, we should only grant a musician inclusion if it does not push the unit's points cost past that of the opponent. However, I present this a supplementary information only, make of it what you will.

    upload_2021-5-20_0-56-43.png


    So, we're left with a sort of RAW vs. RAI situation.

    RAW: Math convention is what math convention is, applying the strictest interpretation of the tournament rules, the K'daai wins by convention.

    RAI: A draw feels (in my opinion) like the fairer result, as it is more indicative of the actual reality on the table top (especially when we factor in the potential for a musician).


    So what do you guys think? K'daai Destroyer minor victory or a draw? I don't think there is a perfectly clear answer in this case, with each side having it's merits, but I personally tend to lean towards a draw.

    From page 2 of this thread we have:
    upload_2021-5-20_1-12-29.png

    While we have shied away from this convention out of necessity (treating 0.49's as 0 and 0.51's as 1), in this case we have the perfect 0.5000000. My original intention was to use the Draw category to account for just such a thing, but I can also see the merit of applying strict tournament/mathematical rules, even if the result feels unfair.


    So there we have it. It's only fitting that we decide via a vote. Majority rules (of course as there are 6 of us, this could backfire with a 3-3 split). Let your voices be heard or forever hold your peace.

    I'll reluctantly cast my vote as a "draw".
     
  14. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    Alternatively, we could split the difference mathematically:
    • if the K'daai dies, then we have a draw and each side is awarded 0 points
    • if the K'daai lives, it wins, earning a single point and the skullcrushers lose a point

    So if we split the difference between a [0 and 0] result and a [1 and -1] result, we are left with a [0.5 and -0.5] result, where 0.5 points awarded to the K'daai and -0.5 for the Skullcrushers.

    Although it would be a new rule created on the spot, if feels as fair as a draw to me.
     
  15. Killer Angel
    Slann

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    Oh my... what a match it was!


    I vote for a draw
     
  16. Imrahil
    Slann

    Imrahil Thirtheenth Spawning

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    What a great tournament ending!!
    Only fair for this great competition.

    My favor is leaning to a draw.
    I have based this on the outcomes of the fight as portrayed (Victory for the K'daai) and the fight of the Skullcrushers with musician (Victory for the Skullcrushers).
    Just like in the match with the Hammeres vs Demigryph Knights the points different isn't that much out of order on both matchups, therefor counting up both results together = draw.

    Grrr, Imrahil
     
  17. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
    Slann

    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Eleventh Spawning

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    I vote for a draw as well - given that the Draw condition was established partly for the purpose of only fractions of wounds remaining, it seems silly to make up a new rule for a situation that is exactly that.

    Additionally, even if we agreed to a K’daai win, if we take the musician-included match into account, as @Imrahil said, we get a clear victory for the Skullcrushers. We gave the Hammerers and Demigryphs a draw result because different conditions meant different victors, so we should do the same again here.

    And because my vote appears to be the fourth with each of the other three voting for Draw, it’s a majority win for Draw!
     
  18. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

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    The thing is that it's definitely draw because of the fact that it literally mathmatically could go either way.

    The draw represents the fact that if they go head to head, it will be down to who rolls the best to see who wins.

    Defo a draw.
     
  19. The Great White Lizard
    Chameleon Skink

    The Great White Lizard Well-Known Member

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    Agreeing with everyone thus far, I also vote for a draw. I feel like this would be more indicative of what would actually happen on the tabletop, which is the purpose of this tournament. I also feel like the +0.5 -0.5 points would be fair, but given that it doesn't change anything standings wise I thinks it's easier to just do a draw.
     
  20. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    Thank you to everyone for the input. It's good to see that we have a clear and decisive decision.

    upload_2021-5-20_10-39-18.png
    upload_2021-5-20_10-40-36.png

    upload_2021-5-20_10-41-25.png

    upload_2021-5-20_10-42-16.png


    And just like that, the tournament is concluded! A huge final showing for the Skullcrushers, who retain a well deserved 4th place.



    Coming up next:

    • some stats and figures (once I compile them)
    • a couple of questions for us to collectively ponder
     

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