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8th Ed. The Ultimate Beastmen Thread

Discussion in 'Other Armies Discussion' started by Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl, Feb 2, 2022.

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  1. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
    Slann

    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Eleventh Spawning

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    As various other armies are starting to develop a presence on this forum, might as well start some Beastman discussion on here as I'm going to be developing an army (and an 8th Edition army book) for our favourite statue-toppling-and-defiling BLM (Beast Lives Matter) protesters.

    Currently the Lustria Warherd stands at a paltry three (possibly four if @pendrake counts) members, with me, @The Great White Lizard and @Knoffles sitting idly at the Herdstone waiting for something to happen, but the latter in particular is a seasoned Beastlord who has compiled a tactics guide for our army! Have a gander at it here:
    https://www.lustria-online.com/thre...-analysis-character-builds-and-tactics.26261/

    And I will commence the discussion by describing the sort of list I'm to be building.

    For characters, I'm going for a Beastlord as my general, a Gorebull BSB (because I want a Minotaur character in there somewhere and I love the idea of a BSB as killy as a Gorebull) and three Bray-Shamans, one Great Bray-Shaman with Beasts and the other two switching between Shadow and Wild depending upon which enemy I'm fighting (Wild can on occasion be useful - Traitor-Kin is a fun spell to pull off against cavalry armies or any super-duper Monstrous Cavalry units and Savage Dominion is better than Transformation of Kadon at giving you a free monster).

    Regarding unit structure I'm more of a thematic player myself, and I detest seeing units larger than 30 models congest the battlefield and trundle along getting in everyone's way like a barely-roadworthy lorry, so my Core slot will be taken up by at least three units of 20 Gors - two with AHW and Mark of Khorne and one or two with Shields and Mark of Tzeentch whenever Marks are being played, the latter to be a Shaman bunker by a Herdstone and the former sprinting up the field, clinging to cover and attacking whichever foes deserve to be butchered first (if it looks a deadly one I'll send in both at the same time, either both into the front or one in the front and one in the flank, to divide the unit's attacks and make casualty handling more manageable). I'm also planning to get some Ungor Raiders (already got 10 with my Start Collecting box, will pick up another box at a later date) to act as war machine hunters and baiting units (it'll serve me well to practice redirection with Skirmishers as I have never bothered to learn that tactic thus far in my time playing Warhammer), and some ordinary Ungors with spears for use in Beast Herds when using my 8th book (as I thought that was a nice mechanic that contributed to the uniqueness of the army and actually works well in 8th).

    I also particularly like the plastic Minotaurs, so aim to have a couple of boxes of them in my army as a Special choice, with additional hand weapons being my chosen build to maximise attack output and maximise chances of winning combat to kick-start the Bloodgreed train, Bestigors to bunker my Beastlord (I'm thinking with the Totem of Rust to make any heavily-armoured enemies wilt) and some Centigors I'll be converting from Chaos Marauder Horsemen when I can find some suitable torsos to fix to the horse bodies.

    As for the Rares, I have a Ghorgon/Cygor as part of my Start Collecting box, and I'm working on a grand project to convert another of the monsters from that slot.

    What about you all? Care to reveal your preferred army builds?
     
    shattershell, Knoffles and Imrahil like this.
  2. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    • Chaos Dwarfs
    • Warriors of Chaos
    • Lizardmen
    • Tomb Kings

    ;)
     
    Lizards of Renown likes this.
  3. Imrahil
    Slann

    Imrahil Thirtheenth Spawning

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    I think you forgot one:
    • Trolls :p
    Grrr, Imrahil
     
    NIGHTBRINGER likes this.
  4. The Great White Lizard
    Chameleon Skink

    The Great White Lizard Well-Known Member

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    The warherd is small, indeed, and the jungles of Lustria are harsh for creatures of the forest such as us. However, the aura of Chaos corrupts all, and soon the cursed Lizard things will be trampled beneath an endless tide of hoofs and iron as their beloved jungle is slowly warped into something more suitable for creatures of Chaos.

    All joking aside, it's sad to see such a small presence of Beastmen players on the forum. They've always been the most creative of the baddies of Warhammer, and some of their models are simply fantastic. I just wish their army book were better, as with the final state of 8th being what it is we're forced to look to custom rules or extra points to give us enough hitting power to take on the larger armies. I'm a relatively new Beastmen player, and listbuilding was a real challenge. I eventually decided on a chariot heavy list, as I just love chariots in general and I found some really nice resin sculpts on Etsy. For characters I've been going with a Great Bray Shaman on a Tuskgor chariot with the Brass Cleaver/Jagged Dagger combo, and a Wargor with the Beast Banner as BSB, and two Bray-Shamans on whatever lores I'm feeling like at the moment. For core I have two-three Tuskgor Chariots, one big block of gor (hordes may be distasteful but they're the only way I've found to make gor work without marks) and a couple units of 5 ungor raiders. I'm also trying to get a larger block of bestigor in the list (I currently only have 15), but the models get very expensive fast. I try out 2-3 razorgors, and usually one razorgor chariot. It seems to be a decent enough build, if a bit reliant on good charge rolls. I'm eagerly awaiting your 8th edition Beastmen book @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl .
     
  5. Knoffles
    Saurus

    Knoffles Member

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    I do find that perhaps more than any other army, Beasts are reliant on chaff to dictate the fights you want and I’ll go much more chaff heavy with this army then in any other. I jump around with builds but my core is pretty much always built around a horde of Gor 40-50 with AHW, a couple of units of 5 Raiders and 2 chariots (which often also get used as chaff). In fairness this has been pretty much down to a restriction of available models (and the fact that hounds don’t count towards core - why GW, why! ‍♂️). I’ve just picked up another box of raiders as I’ve been loving them. 30pts to be a total nuisance is just too good. Occasionally they even manage to shoot something and make back their points! I do have another 20 Gor that I often used to field but I tended to find them a little ineffective at that size. I’d rather field them at 25-30 minimum in 8th. Admittedly we rarely play with Marks so a smaller size could work with shields and MoT.
    Special I play around with. Bestigor are good, if only for the standard of discipline to help maximise the chance of getting primal fury. Their high strength also really helps crack armour, something we can struggle with. I used to horde them but I find a bud is much more effective (normally 6 wide).
    Because we aren’t super competitive anymore we are happy to field less optimal choices. I quite like centigor. They tend to get shot up my most self respecting opponents which is why I bought more, so I could field 2 units or one big really expensive one in core with Ghorros .
    Razorgor are great (I love the Mierce miniature models and really dislike the GW one). In my latest few games I’ve been fielding 6 of them in a unit with a Doombull attached to give them Frenzy. So far it’s not worked out but that has been because each time I’ve charged him off solo and then they are left with their paultry LD of 6… you’d think I’d have learnt by now.
    As chaff they are superb though. I’m also a huge fan of harpies. I’m fielding 2 units of 5 in every list now and normally at least one has scout. Again they have rubbish leadership and will die to any form of shooting but 10 attacks at i5 is great for removing other chaff and warmachine crews (well quite a few of them). My second unit is often placed just behind my main block of Gor as a second line of chaff, to storm forward at a crucial time.
    The rare choices are more straight forward for me. Double Ghorgon all the way! (Though I’ve just painted a Cygor so that will be bought out shortly). If you take their monsters I like two for target saturation. You have to build for it I find, so in these lists the Razorgor chariots also come out (these are expensive but if you can get them into anything Str 3 they are a tank). The chalice of dark rain is also a 1+.
    At this point you may have gathered I rather like the Beastmen. Part of the reason is I cycle through armies and these I started straight after my dwarves so they were a polar opposite in play style. I also enjoy a challenge and having a weaker army appeals to me. It makes any win far more satisfying. I also find they aren’t bad if you are fighting in an elf meta.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2022
  6. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
    Slann

    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Eleventh Spawning

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    Well, this is a Lizardman forum, so the only Beastman players we're going to see are those who have Beastman armies as well as Lizardman armies, of which there are going to be substantially fewer as not everyone can own multiple armies, but I still agree with you that it's a pity that there is a generally low opinion of the True Children of Chaos on this forum except amongst us.

    However, the EEFL forum that @Knoffles and I are members of has a pretty big Beastman fanbase and there is quite a lot of Beastman discussion there, so I'd certainly recommend you join there too.

    I agree - I may be the one person in the world believes this, but I personally really like the 7th Edition Minotaur models, they look as powerful and nasty as they are in lore, and I'm pleased they returned to looking more bovine compared to the largely ugly 5th-6th Edition models that took too many design aspects from wolves and boars. I certainly look forward to buying a couple of boxes to start a Minobus, and already have the Doombull (managed to nab a metal one in a Fantasy box that had probably been in the shop since the 7th Edition release) who I'm going to make into a Gorebull BSB. The Ghorgon/Cygor is also a really nice kit, one of which I already have as part of the SC box I bought a year ago.

    I also really like the creepier aspects of their lore that appear in both the 6th and 7th Edition books, something you don't get with their closest analogies - Warriors of Chaos are just generic 'doom warrior' bad guys crossed with Vikings, and Orcs and Goblins are too comical. Like the Skaven Beastmen are a 'black parody' of mankind, and are in many ways the polar opposite of Skaven - where Skaven represent the cunning, manipulative, inventive, cowardly, greedy, backstabbing and callous part of man, Beastmen represent the brutal, savage, carnal, insane, murderous and destructive side, effectively being the two sides of man's base instincts, or the id as Mr. Freud put it. Both the Beastman and Skaven exist inside every human, and both need to be supressed if society is to advance itself.

    Having played a fair bit of 7th Edition as well, to me it looks as though the book was significantly better in that Edition (without achieving the broken power-level the Daemon, Dark Elf and Vampire books in that Edition allegedly reached), probably middle-tier, as Lore of the Wild would have been more powerful in an Edition with all-round weaker magic, the high price-tag of Minotaurs and monsters was easier to justify with Fear and Terror being much stronger, and Primal Fury is a really nice, strong but balanced mechanic that gave Beastmen more combat punch than they appear to have in the 6th Edition book.

    However I do agree that GW were mad to do all this at the cost of ditching Raiders and Marks and nerfing Ambush so hard, forcing Gors to pay an additional point to take either AHW or Shield rather than factoring them into their base cost and the rules of several Magic Items and Characters are definitely questionable, not to mention that the changes made in 8th specifically hit Beastmen pretty hard (Monstrous Infantry and Monsters in other armies becoming cheaper, the Lore of Beasts being redesigned to be a largely-better rip-off of Lore of the Wild, units from other armies getting a better Ambush rule).

    Nevertheless I'm looking forward to the challenge of building up and gaming with my Warherd over the years, I'm planning on trying out the army in three different ways:
    1. Using the 6th Edition book with an Errata sheet published on EEFL for 8th - this looks particularly appealing right now while my collection is still small, as the 6th Edition book was built more for smaller armies
    2. Using the 7th Edition book with Marks from Glottkin as you and @Knoffles use when my army gets big enough for it to be viable
    3. My own 8th Edition book when it's finished (which shouldn't be too long now!).
    I notice the benefit of the Beast Banner, but it's far too expensive for my liking. 75 points for a single bonus point of Strength on one unit and nothing else is definitely too much - I would have costed it as 50 max personally. Because I plan for my BSB to be a Gorebull I'm giving him the Standard of Discipline to keep the wheels on my Minobus rolling.

    As you know I'm not fond of a massive horde of such a size, but my main Gor loadout for 7th-book gameplay will be 2 units of 20 with AHW (and Mark of Khorne in games where this is allowed), which I should be able to use more flexibly to take down different threats or use together to take on a particularly big enemy unit and divide their attacks (I'm aiming for a fun army that is still capable of winning at least sometimes in case you haven't realised ;)).

    I do question the usefulness of 5-man Raider units, when units of 10 still don't have much of an impact on your roster and can actively kill something in shooting half the time, as well as being a general nuisance, march-blocker and Frenzy-baiter.

    I've also been considering adding one or two units of 20 of these (with the great new Tzaangor models) as bunkers for characters standing around the Herdstone, to avoid them getting targeted by missile units and to be able to take sufficient casualties to avoid panicking after the first or second enemy turn.

    Certainly this is what I aim to achieve - a unit of 20 Bestigors + a Beastlord General will benefit from his LD 9 and can be deployed in a 7x3 formation to maximise attacks. Give them the Mark of Khorne and The Totem of Rust and even Knights will wet themselves when they reach combat (providing they last long enough to attack, such is the price to pay for Great Weapons :rolleyes:).

    I'm planning to convert a small unit of 5 out of some Chaos Marauder Horsemen I have, to use as a flanking menace and worry War Machines. I do like how they are more dangerous in combat than a lot of Cavalry units with their 2 Strength 4 (5 on the charge) attacks apiece (only Knights of all stripes, Saurus Cavalry and Monstrous Cav are obviously more powerful).

    I'm aiming for a Razorgor Chariot in my list rather than a Tuskgor Chariot, because 1 I already have a Boar Chariot for my Orcs and don't really fancy having an exact duplicate in my Beastman army, and 2 I prefer the idea of a Razorgor Chariot to standard Razorgors because of increased durability, the rules loophole where the Primal Fury from the crew allegedly is allowed to spread to the Razorgor as well and Impact Hits (even if I only just discovered the dumb rule of Chariots not being allowed to march - why did GW leave that in there when they could have just represented the weight of the chariot by reducing the steeds' Movement by 1?).

    I've seen some of your Double-Ghorgon lists, though I'm aiming to convert a Jabberslythe so it'll just have to be the one for me, though Sedge on EEFL gave me the excellent idea of combining bits from both options to let you choose to use it as a Cygor or Ghorgon based upon which will be the most useful, so the one I have in my Start Collecting Box will be made up as a CyGhorgon!

    I'm interested to hear you say this in particular, because as far as I can see Dark Elves are pretty much the ultimate counter to Beastmen in their 7th Edition state:
    • ASF means their attacks hurt like hell even if they still have to wound you on 5s
    • As an army that's meant to be melee-focused ourselves we don't have much to hit them with before we get to them - Bombardment with magic, Ungor Raiders and Cygors are our only real tools for this job, but magic can be dispelled, Ungor Raiders can only be taken with a max size of 10 so there is a limit as to what they can achieve even against T3 Elves, and Cygors can often miss due to scatter
    Not to mention that Wood Elves can shoot you to pieces before you even get to them (even though Chalice of Dark Rain is a good way to counter them).

    Is there anything I'm missing here? I'd be interested to know how you have learned to counter the pointy-eared scourge :p
     
    Knoffles and Bowser like this.
  7. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
    Slann

    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Eleventh Spawning

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    @The Great White Lizard @Knoffles

    The Coven of Lustrian Beastlords has a new member! @Padre is planning to start a small Beastman Force for use in Warhammer Fantasy! Let us all welcome our newest Beastlord to the Herdstone, and offer him a pew by the fire and the food!
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2022
  8. Padre
    Salamander

    Padre Well-Known Member

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    Quick question as I plan my army. What bases are the main units on? 20mm or 25mm? Thanks in advance. Mostly wondering about ungor, gor, bestigor, and characters.

    Padre
     
  9. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
    Slann

    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Eleventh Spawning

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    Gors, Bestigors and characters are all on 25mm squares.

    Ungors on the other hand are trickier.

    In 6th Edition they were given 25mm squares to fit alongside Gors in Beast Herds, whereas in 7th Edition they changed them over to 20mm squares, one of the many things they seemingly did to make Beastmen more like a Chaos carbon copy of Orcs and Goblins.

    In my 8th Edition book (a slight spoiler ahead) I’ve returned Ungors’ main role to supporting Gors in Beast Herds, though there are also separate Ungor units you can take in the form of Looters (Ungors with hand weapon and shield - only Ungors with Spears can be used in Beast Herds) and Hunters (Ungor Raiders renamed to take account of the return of the Raiders rule). Thus I would recommend 25mm bases to be used if you wish to use my 8th rules because they’ll be able to line up with Gors in the Beast Herd properly, but if you want to fit them on 20mm squares so that if opponents say ‘they only want to play official’, they won’t niggle and moan at you using ‘the wrong size bases’ on your Ungors, then I don’t mind. It’s still possible to fit Ungors on 20mm bases into Beast Herds anyway given they form their own separate ranks at the back, it’ll just require spacing them out a little to fit behind the Gor they would be standing behind if they were on 25mm bases.

    With Ungors, the choice is up to you, as it’s your collection!
     
  10. Padre
    Salamander

    Padre Well-Known Member

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    Thank you. I'll probably do 20mm for the ungors as my group I normally play with does 8th and the smaller size won't be a problem for the other games I'd play them for.
     
  11. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
    Slann

    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Eleventh Spawning

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    Calling all Beastman players! @Knoffles @The Great White Lizard @Padre


    Yes folks...


    This is the big one...


    It's finally here!


    My first version of my 8th Edition Beastmen army book is ready!


    What you will find:
    • An expanded collection of lore for the True Children of Chaos, including lore sections I have written myself!
    • For the first time, a detailed timeline of events for the Beastmen (I mean if Orcs and Goblins can have a detailed timeline, why not us?), from their creation during the fall of the Northern Polar Gates to the escalation of the ongoing war between Khazrak the One-Eye and Boris Todbringer
    • An expanded army list that focuses on developing and diversifying the Gor part of the Beastman faction - the 7th Edition book did a decent job of expanding the monster side of the force, so it's only natural that my 8th Edition book does something to turn the tables.
    • An effort to fix the issues created by the 7th Edition book - I agree with some folk on here and elsewhere that the 7th Edition book put the Beastman army in a funny place that caused it to often be referred to as 'Warriors of Chaos lite' or 'Chaos Orcs and Goblins', without the all-conquering combat prowess of the Chaos Warriors or the cheapness and expendability of Greenskin units. I was inspired to write this book by an 8th Edition errata for the 6th Edition book I found on EEFL in an effort to get away from this, and my 8th Edition army book builds upon this foundation to develop it into a force with a far more unique playstyle, relying upon cunning, controlling the Movement and Magic phases, and a fair amount of luck (as any balanced Warhammer army should [​IMG])

    Why should you choose this book over Matthias Eliasson's?
    • I feel Matthias' Beastman book didn't really solve the issues the army had, as he largely clung too rigidly to the mechanics of the 7th Edition book and did little to fix the real weaknesses of that book (the Lore of the Wild, the loss of the Raiders rule, Marks were limited to Bestigors, not enough points reductions), and the additions he included just didn't contribute much to the army. I hope to amend that with my ruleset.
    • Matthias no longer seems to care about 8th Edition and has since gone on to abandon it in favour a 9th Edition of his own, like T9A before him. True, his 9th Edition currently still bears a lot of similarity to 8th, but for how much longer? My book, on the other hand, will always be intended for 8th Edition Warhammer Fantasy as GW had written it. At one point I had considered writing my own 9th Edition, but that project has been shelved in favour of making 8th Edition army books for those who don't have them, and is unlikely to re-emerge given TOW is coming anyway.
    • If you bothered to read some of the lore passages in his book, you'll notice that he seemed to copy-paste every bit of lore he could find, from every source he could find, so that you can often see unit bestiary text and lore text repeating itself - while perhaps only a minor niggle in the eyes of many, to a perfectionist like myself this sort of thing is really irritating and shows a little lack of care. My book, on the other hand, has benefitted from my perfectionistic gaze and I have made sure to avoid doing such a thing.
    • Inconsistency of formatting - another minor cosmetic issue is that the images he uses are of all different sizes, a stark contrast to GW's works where all pictures were kept to one of several fixed sizes, plus the size of his text is inconsistent - some pages have smaller text in order to shove as much of GW's lore into bestiary entries as possible! I have made sure to keep to consistent text and image sizes throughout.
    • Connected to my first point, I really believe my book will be much more fun and engaging for Beastmen players to play with - it relies upon using manoeuvrability, unpredictability and tactical finesse to overcome foes that may appear insurmountable, and the tools I have given you to achieve this really give you a feeling of hidden power, just like a Beastlord at the head of a mighty Brayherd!

    The Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl promise:
    Unlike GW, who have often been seen as 'a model company that makes games', I wish to make the balancing of my book a top priority - I'd like to think I've kept all the mechanics suitably balanced, but if you think that a unit or item has been too heavily undercosted, or a rule has become too powerful, then don't hesitate to let me know on this thread, because I will make it a prerogative to look into it and work out how it can be toned down a bit. Similarly if you find something to be too underpowered, I will certainly give consideration to how it can be improved without making it too strong! Also post any questions you have here, and I will be happy to answer them.

    Over to you!
    While I have had great fun writing and tinkering with this book, it will be nothing without adequate playtesting, which is why I have posted it here and summoned you to the Herdstone! It would be great if you could have a go at using my book in friendly games with mates, if they're open to playing with and against fan-made rulesets, and see how the book plays on the tabletop opposite the other 8th Edition books. In particular, posting battle reports using this new book will be an excellent way for everyone to see how the list fares, and posting feedback at the end will give me the greatest insight on whether there's anything that should be tweaked, and how.

    Where's the book then?
    It can be read here, in my Great Library (first post).

    And without further ado, I hope you thoroughly enjoy reading this Book of Bestial Malevolence, and unleashing the horrors within its pages to bring ruin to the civilised races! Sound the Brayhorns!
     
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  12. PlasmaDavid
    Kroxigor

    PlasmaDavid Active Member

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    Today I finished assembling the bestigors in the current AoS army box. They were a bit fiddly and annoying to rank up to be honest.

    Built the ungors the other day with my brother who is entirely new to TT minis. I was very impressed with the mould quality and all the options, a really fantastic kit. Built 5 with melee weapons and 5 with bows, I don't mind doing that and running a ten strong unit as one or the other option.

    Really nice to put together a small force of beastmen, I'm not drawn to any of the chaos factions but they're probably the chaos faction I dislike the least. Still have the hero and giant monster to build. No doubt I'll only end up playing one page rules, or another miniature agnostic game with them but it's cool to finally have some beastmen!

    Hopefully my brother and I will get a game with them this weekend, even if he has to use some mantic orks or something to pad out his force.

    All the varied options on the ungors really make me want to play more of a skirmish/RPG style game with them!
     
  13. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
    Slann

    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Eleventh Spawning

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  14. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
    Slann

    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Eleventh Spawning

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    @The Great White Lizard @Knoffles @Padre

    I forgot to formally welcome @PlasmaDavid to the Coven of Lustrian Beastlords!

    Additionally, though he's planning on using his Warherd in AoS, I still feel it's only fair to welcome @Tk'ya'pyk to the Coven as well - a Beastlord is a Beastlord, no matter the game system!

    Scrawl your names on the Herdstone, take a (roughly-carved by a bullied Ungor) chair and join us by the campfire!

    I'll also mention that it'd be great to share pictures of your growing Warherds and any Battle Reports they participate in - we True Children of Chaos are eternally shaped by mutation and deviation, and thus our collections can act as a tool to inspire any future new arrivals into going wild with their Beastman projects!
     
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  15. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
    Slann

    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Eleventh Spawning

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    Tk'ya'pyk likes this.
  16. Tk'ya'pyk
    Skink Chief

    Tk'ya'pyk Well-Known Member

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    Can I post my conversion attempts here, or would you prefer links to my own Scratchbashing page instead? For now, they are over on that page. Last entry: https://www.lustria-online.com/threads/tkyapyks-modeling-attempts-scratchbashers-beware.22996/page-4
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2022
  17. Tk'ya'pyk
    Skink Chief

    Tk'ya'pyk Well-Known Member

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