1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

8th Ed. Which magic lore do you wish you had access to?

Discussion in 'Other Armies Discussion' started by NIGHTBRINGER, Sep 26, 2021.

  1. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

    Messages:
    57,043
    Likes Received:
    176,144
    Trophy Points:
    113
    This is just a fun simple hypothetical exercise that I hope will prove to be a good starting off point for discussion.

    Simply...
    1. Pick an army
    2. Choose a magic lore that you wish they had access to (which they normally cannot choose)
    3. Explain why you think that magic lore would work well for them tactically

    Guidelines:
    • your choice should be made purely with tactics in mind (it doesn't matter if the lore makes no sense from a fluff perspective). Try to pick the lore that you think would be of the greatest tactical benefit to your chosen army
    • refrain from choosing undead lores (Vampires or Nehekhara) for non-undead armies
    • feel free to choose from any of the army book lores (with the exception of the caveat outlined above) or any of the BRB lores

    I have a lore in mind for my Chaos Dwarfs and one for my Tomb Kings which I will be sharing shortly.


    Have fun, let your imagination go wild and I look forward to exploring the options you come up with!

    To start us off:
    @Lizards of Renown @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl @Killer Angel @Imrahil @Charlemagne @Cptn Timmy and anyone else who might find this topic interesting!!!

    !.png
     
  2. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

    Messages:
    9,719
    Likes Received:
    24,232
    Trophy Points:
    113
    My immediate though is the Undead Lore for the Tomb Kings, but I'll expand on it more later.

    More healing for the models, generating new units (even if zombies would still go with the general tactics of the Tomb Kings), overall all the spells synergize nicely with the Tomb Kings and bring it up from shit to medium-shitty.

    I'll have more of a think later.
     
  3. Cptn Timmy
    Cold One

    Cptn Timmy Active Member

    Messages:
    103
    Likes Received:
    202
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Ever since I played my first game with lizardmen I have had an answer to this question.
    The Lore of Light for the Warriors of Chaos
    Let's go through the spells:

    Shems: an excellent little magic missiles that can deal with high Armour saves and chaff alike. A 5+ that makes up for the armies lack of shooting, yes please

    Pha's: a -1 to hit while we're trudging up the field or in combat paired with Mark of nurgle. Gross. Even a chance of neutralizing a war machine from shooting my big beasties.

    Speed of light: ws and I 10 you say? Isn't that a little superfluous you say? Well an additional -1 to hit in combat is never a bad thing, and I'm pretty sure this spell is fueled by elf tears. Negate asf and superior weapon skills on elves and they start to look alot like skinny halberdiers.

    Light of battle: unbreakable on any unit or a.o.e. anyone who hates the crown of command might hate this spell even more.

    Net: fun spell. Hilarious when used on elves. What else to say.

    Banishment: bit of a dud because of the high cost of chaos sorcerers but medium sized fire ball is nothing to sneeze at, especially with the previously mentioned lack of shooting.

    Bironas: Now we're talking; oh warriors are too slow to be a super effective unit some would say, well how about a 16" March move turn one. And while we're at it let's make sure they have asf (with their usually superior stats) and an extra attack, just in case you were hoping to triple charge the big watrior block that is now right in your face. A unit of 10 woc with mok and halberds 5x2 can now dish out 25 st 5 attacks rerolling to hit (usually, or definitely if you cast speed of light) before getting hit back and losing any attacks . Talk about a blender.

    TACTICS: I do belive that this lore could enable woc to run an msu list, which could be a lot of fun, but will not be what I focus on here.

    I think that the lore of light makes up for any inefficiencies that warriors of chaos have, especially the warriors themselves. Now this might be a bit of my own bias because I like my WoC armies to be large amounts of foot trudging soldiers advancing in a wave. Here's what I'm picturing:
    A central block of nurgle warriors with hw and shield and my beefy nurgle sorcerer on a palanquin in the middle of it 6 wide and probably at least 4 deep. To the right a 6 wide block of khorne warriors with halberds 3 or 4 deep and to the left a nice block of chosen kitted out however you see fit (hopefully nurgle halberd and t5 or extra attack). The sorcerer can reach both units with his bubble buffs and hopefully you get bironas turn one to send them halfway across the board. 16 inch March lines up well with your dogs or marauder horsemen to play the chaff game at the same speed. I think the lore of light provides some defensive ability as well with the -1 to hit spells so you can kit your warriors out for maximum carnage and let your sorcerer protect them.
    Anyways thats me about finished salivating over the possibilities of what lore of light could do for my style of warriors army. Let me know what y'all think or if I missed anything.

    Edit: I just realized that you can't turn one bironas and use it for the turn 1 movement phase, but I think the strength of it still stands out. Just takes a little more thought.
     
  4. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

    Messages:
    57,043
    Likes Received:
    176,144
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Excellent write-up @Cptn Timmy , that is exactly the type of insightful analysis I was hoping to get out of this thread. You make some great points on behalf of the WoC + lore of light combo, and I think you're right (especially in the case of an infantry based army as you laid out)!

    That would be a whole world of delightful nastiness. Those Nurgle Warriors would be virtually unhittable, with nearly all units needing 6's to score a hit.

    An absolute game changer on units of Chaos Warriors. The +1 A and ASF would make them very dangerous.

    Agreed, not particularly the best for WoC. A level 4 caster is the better way to go, as multiple level 1's becomes prohibitively expensive for the Chaos boys! A light council would simply cost too much.

    Helps patch up one of the WoC's weaknesses, mediocre leadership.
     
  5. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

    Messages:
    57,043
    Likes Received:
    176,144
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Interesting. I look forward to reading your expanded breakdown. Would you say that the Lore of Undeath is better than the Lore of Vampires? I must admit that I am not very familiar with the Lore of Undeath because I'm not a fan of the End Times.

    Any other lore ideas for the other armies you play?


    "bring it up from shit to medium-shitty"

    Hooray for medium-shitty! :D
     
    Imrahil and Lizards of Renown like this.
  6. Imrahil
    Slann

    Imrahil Thirtheenth Spawning

    Messages:
    7,518
    Likes Received:
    17,730
    Trophy Points:
    113

    Thanks for mentioning me, I will mostly be reading the contributions of others.
    I do not at all have a view on tactics in the WHFB setting nor a good knowledge of the Lores of Magic.

    Interesting idea nontheless.

    Grrr, Imrahil
     
    NIGHTBRINGER likes this.
  7. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
    Slann

    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Eleventh Spawning

    Messages:
    7,102
    Likes Received:
    15,807
    Trophy Points:
    113
    An interesting thread, though slightly different from the initial idea I thought it was talking about (lores that would be thematically cool for an army but were not given to them, for which I would say Lore of Metal for Dwarfs, because they are the supreme metalworkers of the Warhammer world).

    However I can provide some tactical picks as well, namely both Lore of Light and Lore of Metal for Beastmen. Light would benefit them in similar ways to Warriors of Chaos as @Cptn Timmy has already described (though with a less supremely filthy OP outcome), while Metal deals with a particular weakness of theirs in my eye - dealing with enemy armour. The reason I say this is because other than Monsters, they are stuck between Gors, who are hench but for some reason only have Strength 3, Ungors who are man-size and understandably have Strength 3, and Bestigors who are good at taking down enemy armour if they get the chance to attack (in particular if they take the Totem of Rust in 7th Ed rules) but have to strike last which, combined with their relative lack of armour, means they have to endure shooting and the enemy attacking first before they can get chance to fight. Armies like Dwarfs can blast the living hell out of armoured targets with their war machines, but Beastmen can't do this except with lucky Cygor shots and Death spells, so with their far greater magical capabilities they could certainly do with the Lore of Metal to use armoured enemies' defence against them at range and leave more vulnerable foes ripe for the killing.

    I like this one - you don't need to summon Zombies with it because it allows you to choose from both armies, and thus allow you to take Skeletons instead if (like me) you don't want anything to do with Vampire scum and want to raise more proud Nehekharans to serve their king.

    And @Lizards of Renown buddy don't get so despondent with Tomb Kings, it was mainly their magic items and lore that were messed up and if it was altered via either applying the changes I have mentioned before or even replacing Nehekhara with Undeath as you've just said, the army would get significantly better I'd wager. Of course it doesn't help that certain armies would still be hard to beat but that's GW's fault for making their favourites so obviously broken with little regard for balance.
     
  8. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

    Messages:
    57,043
    Likes Received:
    176,144
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Very interesting. If you only had access to one of those two lores for your Beastmen, which would it be, Light or Metal? And why?

    I don't pretend to be any sort of expert on Beastmen (I know nearly nothing about them as they are literally my least favourite army), but I think I have a truly devastating idea for them with the lore of Light. Picture building a Light council all clustered around the Shard of the Herdstone. You get a truly devastating Banishment spell AND a crap ton of powerdice all in one. That is a punishing combo! At that point, I think the Beastmen could pretty much out-magic any army in the game.
     
  9. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

    Messages:
    57,043
    Likes Received:
    176,144
    Trophy Points:
    113
    ...well @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl , which would you choose?
     
  10. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
    Slann

    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Eleventh Spawning

    Messages:
    7,102
    Likes Received:
    15,807
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Indeed the fact that Beastmen have the combo of cost-effective and good-profiled casters to produce a Beasts or Shadow council means a light council around the Herdstone wouldn’t be too much of a stretch from the best tactics around, and it would maximise the chances of me getting the best spells plus extra power dice from the Herdstone. My only problem with this tactic, indeed any tactic that revolves round the Herdstone its 7th Edition state, is that the Bray-Shamans would have to have babysitting units to stop the enemy being able to pick them off with missiles from the get-go, and with a tiny range of 6” for the power dice buff I’d have to crowd these units around the Herdstone model which would be a faff (which is why in my 8th Edition book I’m increasing this to 12”), not to mention these these units could panic and take the Shamans in them off the board after suffering 25% casualties. But then, I would at least have Light of Battle to get the unit to rally automatically, and if I can turbo-boost my Beastmen into their shooting units early on in the game and/or at least stop them from getting close enough to shoot the Shamans I’ll be laughing all the way to the shrine of the Chaos Gods.

    Bearing this in mind, if I were going to an all-comers event, I would choose Light because it’s pretty much a cure-all for the Beastman army, Pha’s Protection would compensate for their lack of armour, Speed of Light and Birona’s Timewarp would help them get into combat even quicker (Birona’s Timewarp would literally give Gors a flight move without being able to move over enemies) and kick backside even better when they get there and Light of Battle would help with their average Leadership, not to mention the formidable magic missiles of Shem’s Burning Gaze and Banishment.

    However if I knew who I was up against and it happened to be Dwarfs, Warriors of Chaos, Bretonnia, Lizardmen or anything else with knights, I would take at least one Bray-Shaman with Metal because it’s so delicious to use against those armies with spells that would wound easily against their armour and take that armour away from them. Nevertheless Metal is situational as it can only be used to best effect against those armies, whereas Light would produce sterling results in my Beastmen against any enemy,
     
  11. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

    Messages:
    57,043
    Likes Received:
    176,144
    Trophy Points:
    113
    That is a fair point, it does have some limitations. One thing though, it is not within 6" of the Herdstone model, but rather 6" around the Herdstone terrain piece that you are permitted to place in your deployment zone. It shouldn't be too difficult to place a couple of bunkers around a suitable terrain piece. And a single bunker can hold multiple wizards.

    I think you're correct in your assessment. The lore of Light would be amazing in a wide array of scenarios and against just about any army.

    While I'm deviating a bit off topic, I would suggest being highly cautious when making such a change. The Shard of the Herdstone is already an absolute top tier magic item. It is a relic of a previous edition, as abilities/items/units that generate extra power dice (especially ones with such few limits) are exceptionally rare in 8th edition. One of the few 8th edition examples is the Casket of Souls, which is an absolute steal for the Tomb Kings and the primary reason why they are considered to be one of the best armies in terms of magic phase potential. Writing custom rules to improve the Shard of the Herdstone would be no different than writing custom rules to improve the Casket of Souls. They are already more than good enough as is, even if they do appear in armies that are overall subpar. Tweaking them can lead to overpowered items/units that will quickly result in others rejecting the use of your house rules. In a large pointed game, I can't think of another item/unit that has a greater potential to dominate the magic phase as the Shard of the Heardstone can.

    That's just my opinion anyway.
     
  12. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

    Messages:
    57,043
    Likes Received:
    176,144
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Still looking forward to @Lizards of Renown 's analysis and breakdown. Maybe @Killer Angel will share some of his wisdom too!





    I got my preferred magic lore for the Chaos Dwarfs fully thought out and ready to go. Any guesses? ;)
     
    Lizards of Renown and Imrahil like this.
  13. Killer Angel
    Slann

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

    Messages:
    11,673
    Likes Received:
    26,385
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I will SURELY post something, but it requires some thinking, a thing in this moment i don't have time to.
    But i'll try to do my duty asap, don't worry!
     
  14. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

    Messages:
    9,719
    Likes Received:
    24,232
    Trophy Points:
    113
    :) I’d love to hear Killer Angels words of wisdom as an experienced general.

    For me, the Lore of Vampires is what the Lore of Nehekhara should have been.

    Lore Attribute - heals wizard one wound or another friendly model in 12”. Not bad, obviously the number of things that HEAL wounds in the game is quite small and considering characters and constructs this would still be useful for the Tomb Kings.

    Signature - Invocation of Nehek - Depending on the power used, 6, 12 or 18 inch spell that heals infantry D6 plus casters level, other models 1 plus caster’s level and large targets by one PER CASTING. Considering that you also get the lore attribute, you can heal a large target by two. Considering that you can have a bunch of piddily wizards repeat casting this spell it’s a good one as they can all take it as the signature spell.

    Vanhel Danse Macabre - for only a 6+ you can give a unit hatred basically (re-roll to hits) or an 8” movement. Considering one of the major failings of Tomb Kings is movement, here you could triple their movement. A very useful spell in getting close to the enemy and in combat. Then for 12+ you can effect all friendlies in 12”? Awesome.

    Hellish Vigour - 8+ re-roll to wound scores to one unit in 12”. Not bad. The powered up version is 16+ to affect everyone in 12” which is a bit expensive. Still useful for an army that has a lot of basic troops with strength issues. Give it to the Tomb Guard and potentially increase your Killing Blows!

    Gaze of Nagash - 9+ gives a magic missile with 2D6 S4 hits. It’s not bad. At least 2D6 gives you an average of 7 hits which is okay.

    Raise Dead - 9+ for 2D3 plus 3 Zombies or 14+ for 2D3 skeletons. Bit annoying, but sure, summon the Zombies and use them as additional annoying chaff.

    Curse of Years - 12+ spell that allows no armour save and kills on a 6+, BUT remains in play and next turn its a 5+ to cause a wound, then 4+. I really like this one as it’s not that expensive and really dangerous to let it go on more than a couple of turns. Plus you have to roll for EVERY model in the unit. An awesome anti-Deathstar spell or just to whittle down a unit to size. Or just to terrorize the enemy and make him waste his dice so you can do more healing.

    Wind of Death - Not even going to describe this one. It’s pretty pants. And it’s a magical vortex so you only get to control the direction for the fist turn. Bah.

    Anyways, I think it handles the regeneration amounts needed to bring up the effectiveness of the Tomb Kings and help handle constructs bleeding wounds due to combat resolution.

    Lore of Light.[/QUOTE]
     
    NIGHTBRINGER likes this.
  15. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

    Messages:
    57,043
    Likes Received:
    176,144
    Trophy Points:
    113
    All good stuff!! Your analysis was definitely worth the wait. I am in full agreement, the Lore of Vampires is the lore that I would most love to select for my TK army.

    The another lore I would select for my TK army (if I could not choose the Lore of Vampires) would be the lore of metal. First off, just in general, I've always liked the lore of Metal. Secondly, I think one of the biggest issues that the TK have is dealing with heavily armoured units/armies (especially when those units are immune to Killing Blow). Lore of Metal has several good spells against armour, as well as several other great spells that aren't reliant on enemy armour. Can you imagine casting Glittering Robes on a unit of Necropolis Knights in a dedicated Ramhotep-centered army for that sweet 1+ rerollable armour save?! :wideyed: Enchanted Blades of Aiban, although not aiding in TK shooting, is still an awesome spell for its +1 to hit in close combat. And of course, Final Transmutation is just a great spell to have in your back pocket if you are facing any death stars or other large dangerous units. Transmutation of Lead is the spell you trade for Searing Doom.

    I'd definitely take the Lore of Vampires over Metal, but I still think the Lore of Metal would be a nice addition to the Tomb Kings.

    Good guess, solid lore, but no. I think I have a MUCH better one for my Chaos Dwarfs. Analysis coming soon!
     
    Lizards of Renown and Imrahil like this.
  16. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

    Messages:
    57,043
    Likes Received:
    176,144
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Here goes, my pick and analysis.

    Army: Chaos Dwarfs
    Lore: Lore of Life

    I've always considered the Chaos Dwarfs to be somewhere in the vicinity of a middle tier army. That said, I believe that if they had access to the lore of life, they could easily be considered an upper tier army. While making no sense from a fluff perspective, tactically the Lore of Life does such an amazing amount of work for the Chaos Dwarfs. On its own, the Lore of Life is already one of the best lores in the game, but for the Chaos Dwarfs, I feel it would be an absolute game changer.

    The lore of Life (specifically 5 of the 7 spells and the lore attribute) simply offers the Chaos Dwarfs more than it does for any army that actually has access to it. Specifically:
    • mitigates some of their weaknesses more than it does for other armies
    • it offers the CD synergistic combinations that are not available to other armies (if not kind, then definitely in magnitude)
    Taken together, my central premise is simply that while the Lore of Life can obviously benefit any army, it offers the Chaos Dwarfs more than it offers any other army. With that in mind, here we go...

    Lifebloom (Lore Attribute) - every time a spell is cast you can heal a wound on a model within 12". Who doesn't want to heal there models? However, it is one thing to heal a Treeman or a Stegadon, but an entirely different matter to heal something like a K'daai Destroyer. The Chaos Dwarfs have a couple of units that are both extremely expensive points-wise per wound and very difficult to wound in the first place. That means that each wound healed is "worth" more and its restoration is more crippling to the opposition.

    Earth Blood (signature spell) - augment cast on the wizard and his unit, provides a 5+ regeneration save (4+ if boosted by Throne of Vines). A regeneration spell is always handy to have, but even more so in many of the Chaos Dwarf units. Regeneration is countered by flaming attacks, but Chaos Dwarfs have built in protection against such attacks. Take a unit like the Infernal Guard for instance, cast the spell and give them a 5+ regeneration, if the opposing army hits them with flaming attacks it activates their 5+ ward. This effect is even more exaggerated if cast on the Bale/Great Taurus who has a 2+ ward save against flaming attacks. Earth Blood is a great way to protect the Bale Taurus, who normally doesn't have a save to begin with and has to solely rely on its re-rolling of successful wounds mechanic to protect it. Earth Blood turns the Bale Taurus into a mini K'daai Destroyer that flies.

    Awakening of the Wood - direct damage spell with a range of 18", D6 S4 hits (or 2D6 if target is in a forest). Boosted to S6 by Throne of Vines. This helps the Chaos Dwarfs mitigate one of their weaknesses, namely, the chaff game. Unlike most armies, the CD have no access to fast moving chaff units from their core selections. They have to either use hero points or rare points. Awakening of the Wood helps the CD remove enemy chaff. As such, this spell is more useful to them than for most other armies.

    Flesh to Stone - augment, 24" range, +2 toughness (boosted to +4 toughness by Throne of Vines). This is a big one. Sure you can easily boost a Bull Centaur's toughness to 7 even without Throne of Vines, but where this really comes into play is with the three units/models with the Blazing Body special rule, namely the Bale/Great Taurus, K'daai Fireborn and K'daai Destroyer (non-magical wounds inflicted on these units must be re-rolled). As such, the extra toughness is compounded by their ability to force enemies to re-roll successful wounds.

    Consider:
    upload_2021-10-2_12-20-52.png

    The key is to look at the ratio between the "chance of wounding" (which applies to most units in the game) and the "chance of wounding when re-rolling successful wounds" (which applies to the Taurus and K'daai).

    When wounding on 2's, the K'daai/Taurus are 1.2 times less likely to be wounded. A small, but nice bonus. However, the key is that as the roll needed to wound gets higher, this ratio increases. With 3's needed to wound, the K'daai/Taurus are 1.5 times less likely to be wounded. On 4's they are 2 times less likely to be wounded. On 5's they are 3 times less likely to be wounded. And finally on 6's they are 6 times less likely to be wounded, which is an astronomical difference.

    This is the reason why in our close combat tournament, the K'daai Destroyer (toughness 6) was so much more resilient defensively than the K'daai Fireborn (toughness 4).

    Flesh to Stone, even unboosted, turns Fireborn into a Destroyer in terms of defense. As for the Destroyer, it would shrug off just about everything. Imagine it facing Executioners (S6), normally they are wounding the Destroyer with 25% of their successful hits, cast the unboosted version of Flesh to Stone and that number falls to 3%. Essentially this makes the Destroyer immune to nearly every unit in the game (barring poison attacks and such). Additionally, Flesh to Stone protects the Iron Daemon from cannon fire and the boosted version protects the Destroyer from those very same cannons.

    This spell is borderline broken for any Chaos Dwarf army focusing on K'daai units. Shifting the toughness on these units has a much larger effect on them than it does for other normal units in the game.

    Throne of Vines - On a 2+ a miscast is ignored, and the spell boosts the effects of the other spells in the lore. Every wizard hates a miscast, but Chaos Dwarf sorcerers also suffer from a special rule called "Sorcerer's Curse". When they miscast, not only do they have to roll on the miscast table as normal, but they also must pass a toughness test or suffer a wound with no saves of any kind allowed. Therefore, the ability to avoid a miscast is more important for a Chaos Dwarf army than it is for another army. The spell protects against an inherent vulnerability in the army. Additionally, the boosted effects of the spells are also more important because they only further increase the extra help they provide the CD (as detailed in the breakdown for the other spells).

    Shield of Thorns - RIP spell, augment, range 24". Enemy units in base contact with the the target take 2D6 S3 hits (S4 with Throne of Vines). No additional benefit to the Chaos Dwarfs (as compared to the other armies) but this is the spell you trade away for the Signature spell anyways.

    Regrowth - augment, range 24", heal D3+1 wounds (D6+1 if boosted by Throne of Vines). This follows the same principle as I outlined in the Lore Attribute. Imagine having a K'daai Destroyer healed by 2, 3, 4 or even 5 wounds. It's already a huge task to remove it from the field, Regrowth would make it nearly impossible. Picture healing a T8, 3+ armour save, unbreakable Iron Daemon! The Chaos Dwarfs are an elite expensive force, anything that heals them provides them with more value than it would for a less elite force. For instance, each wound of a Destroyer costs 54.2 points, regrowth heals a minimum of 2 wounds!

    The Dwellers Below - direct damage, 12"/24" range. Each model in the target unit must pass a strength test or be slain with no saves allowed. No additional benefit to the Chaos Dwarfs (as compared to other armies), but this is an absolutely top tier spell. Decimates units (especially Elves!) and assassinates characters. There isn't an army in the game that wouldn't like to have this spell at their disposal.


    And there you have it! That's why I believe that the Chaos Dwarfs would so massively benefit from access to the lore of Life. Tactically, I would never play any of the other lores if I could instead field the Lore of Life. The Chaos Dwarfs would be downright scary with such a lore. It protects the army's inherent weaknesses and synergies with their strengths in a way that would give them a borderline unfair advantage. I have rarely seen a magic lore work so well for an army.
     
  17. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

    Messages:
    9,719
    Likes Received:
    24,232
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Nice. Solid review.
     
    NIGHTBRINGER likes this.
  18. Killer Angel
    Slann

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

    Messages:
    11,673
    Likes Received:
    26,385
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Yeah, deep analysis.
    It's clear that NIGHTBRINGER pondered on it for a good amount of time.
     
  19. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

    Messages:
    57,043
    Likes Received:
    176,144
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Thank you gentlemen! :)

    It was definitely my inspiration for this thread. One day I was wondering what lore would work best for my CD. I looked through the lores and was astonished how synergistically the Lore of Life works with the Chaos Dwarfs (especially in a CD list that fits my play-style, unit preferences and strategy). In a Chaos Dwarf army without Iron Daemons, Bale/Great Taurus and especially K'daai (and most especially K'daai Destroyers), the lore would be much more balanced. In a Chaos Dwarf Infernal Guard infantry focused build, it would still be really good, but not game breaking. At least that's the way I see it. :p

    Either way, I thought it to be a fun little experiment for us and a good setup for another thread I have planned in the future (I have another 5 random thread topics scribbled down).
     
    Lizards of Renown likes this.
  20. Killer Angel
    Slann

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

    Messages:
    11,673
    Likes Received:
    26,385
    Trophy Points:
    113

    Must be said that CD can gain a great mileage out of this.
    I was looking at Tomb Kings... given their powerful magic phase, it would be natural to see if you can exploit something other than light and death.

    What would happens if we take Fire?
    It could be very good, but it's a limited trick pony.
    The lore attribute is really interesting, as when a unit has already been damaged by a fire spell, you gain a +d3 to the casting.
    Now pick the signature spell, Fireball.
    5+, d6 hits S4... 10+, 2d6 hits
    hit a unit once, and with the second casting, if the caster is nearby a Hierotitan, you'll have a +2d3 bonus!
    even a 1st lev. caster will enjoy on average a +5 (!!!) thus easily casting the boosted version with just a couple of dices.
    That would put to shame the light council which is one of the most iconic build for magical barrage employed by TK.
    There are other good spells.
    Fire-cloack, for further 2d6 S4 hits in combat... really handy when you play with grinding combats
    Flaming sword gives a +1 to wound, making attacks magical and flaming. even skellies become much more dangerous.
    Flame cage is a sort of net of Amintok
    So, would fire be nice? yes. game changer? not at all. It does nothing to overcome TK weak spots


    Beast is the same: some nice trick (wyssan is always good), and Pann would greatly increase our troops staying power, but nothing that can effectively bypass TK weaknesses.


    Metal is very nice, its signature spell can help us against heavily armored opponents, that TK could struggle wounding with low S attacks.
    Blades of Aiban... +1 to hit? in a unit already buffed by My Will Be Done? that's a lot of goodness
    Glittering robe... basically +2 to armor to our melee troops. Tomb Guards Deathstar with save 3+? yes please.
    Transmutation in lead is a solid debuffer and we all know that Final Transmutation is really dangerous.
    The other real good thing is that all those spells have a relatively low casting (just a little too high for the signature), and we have buffs.
    Now, metal could really help TK in the melee phase, it would help them in dealing with armored opponents (other than reliying on KB and poisoned asaph) and would give them access to one of the big feared spell (not as dangerous as other ones, but still more powerful than what is offered by light or nehekhara lore).

    Death... when you field arkhan is good, i don't know if it would be the same in the hands of low level liche priests.

    Life. As said by @NIGHTBRINGER, every army would enjoy life. but TK wouldn't have that much of a bonuses from it, certainly not as much as CD.
    And as much as earth-blood is good, i don't really want a lore just for it's signature spell.

    Heavens. I don't see it overcomes or helps significantly TK

    Shadow. this is interesting, also because the lore attribute could make up for interesting tricks. Is the bunker of your high liche priest in cc with a dangerous opponent? debuff the attackers, then swap the position of the priest with a Prince and give MWBD to the bunker. Or move your high priest and place a 1st lev. priest there
    Mystifying miasma is a good debuffer
    Steed of shadow can give more free move to your king on sphinx... (except TK on spinxes is a bad chioce and you don't play them)
    Enfeebling foe and Withering are both good debuffer.
    Pit of shades: we all know it
    mindrazor... jeez, even a skellies unit with a king in it, will have WS6 and S10


    So there, for TK it would be really nice to have metal or shadow, and marginally fire, but there's nothing that can really increase their power in the way life can do with CD.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2021

Share This Page