Hello again, everyone. I'm in the process of getting ready for Adepticon (~60 days left), and am putting a list together for the team tournament. Since my ally is playing Bretonnians (and knight-heavy), I need to provide the numbers to compensate for his rather small force This particular list has gone through two mutations so far; the original seeing a massive victory against High Elves (wiped out save a mage, who lost the ability to cast spells because of a miscast, with only 14 Skinks lost in return), while the second iteration saw a marginally smaller, but still impressive victory against the same (and now more experienced) High Elve player (Including a unit of 5 Chameleons that outfought a unit of Phoenix Guard that out-numbered them 4-1). This new version dropped the Stegadon from the first two (It only had a half-dozen kills to claim for itself, given that it was played more as an anvil than anything), replacing it with a salamander (the one I took reaped a mighty toll, even after the handlers were killed off), and more skirmishers (who did very well in the two games). I'm also going to try out a unit of Terradons, more to get a feel for them to see if they actually will be useful. Breaking the list down: Heroes Skink Priest (General) Level 2, Plaque of Tepok Skink Chief Battle Standard, Light Armor, Shield, Blowpipe, Venom of the Firefly Frog Core Skink Skirmishers 13 Skinks, Javelins & Shields Skink Skirmishers 13 Skinks, Javelins & Shields Skink Skirmishers 13 Skinks, Javelins & Shields Skink Skirmishers 13 Skinks, Javelins & Shields Special Terradon Riders 3 Riders Chameleon Skinks 5 Chameleons Chameleon Skinks 5 Chameleons Rare Salamander Hunting Pack Extra Handler Salamander Hunting Pack Total Cost: 998 points As evident, the list is a massive horde of Skink skirmishers; looking at the general effectiveness of the large blocks of infantry that seem to litter every gaming board I come across (20+ seems to be the norm), I wanted to do exactly the opposite; small, lightweight, and cheap (the most expensive unit is the Priest, at a little over 100 points), with enough flexibility to stay a thorn in my opponents side. With the large number of smaller sections of infantry, I can take advantage of cover quickly and efficiently, striking out when and where I can take advantage of the situation. While every unit is (at times, very) vulnerable to a superior opponent, the movement rate of my forces (and the accuracy while moving at high speed) will allow me to quickly flank almost any opponent, and strike back with the usual efficiency that I've seen from Sotek's children. The Chameleons will perform their traditional role as headhunters, sitting in the flanks to draw fire and kill their prey before they get overwhelmed (which, oddly, hasn't happened. The units are small and cheap enough that most people don't bother with chasing them, without losing overall cohesion). I would be tempted to take a third unit, but I am loathe to do so given that it means shedding even more of the veil of theme in deference to effectiveness. As with the Chameleons, the Salamanders will maintain their proven role, and serve as the hammer against any heavy infantry that dare to go near them. Deployed alongside the skirmishers (in the little notch formed in the otherwise 7x2 formations of skirmishers), they can grab cover from the skirmishers in front of them, while firing without hitting their comrades. This proved immensely effective against the High Elves, where the 3-4 Sea Guard killed by the Skirmisher's Javelins would be augmented by another 8-9 killed by the Salamander (Driving the unit back far enough to take it out of any immediate fighting, and effective bow range). The Terradons are going to be interesting to play with; Given that the entire army moves at such a high rate, I'm probably going to use theses as rear harassment troops, flying overhead (dropping rocks on smaller infantry, cavalry, or war machine units in the process), and providing the sort of annoyance that will hopefully disrupt any efforts to simply march forth and engage their brethern. As always, comments, advice, warnings, and general say-so are always appreciated, and hopefully I'll see at least one of you at the tournament.
How do your skirmishers last through even one round of combat? No rank bonus and no command make them almost useless against a larger rank and file unit. Also, how exactly did your chameleons from the previous game beat Pheonix guard? I have been playing for just over a year and I have never had any chameleons (even a unit of 10) last more than 2 rounds of combat before breaking.
That list might work on its own but I am not sure how it will work when it is combined with bretonian cavalry. You are dependent on minimising your losses which is possible with a skirmisher list, but if your ally loses all of his army in the process you will lose anyway. I think his knights require at least one unit of saurus so that they get a litle backupp in CC. However you should play it as you like.
The primary advantage that Skinks have is their speed. Thus, I took advantage of this, and ran away; because no other unit would be in range of a redirected charge (owing to a careful staggering of the blocks), the charge would fail, and be forced to endure another round of shooting. His units were never beaten in one turn- you rarely ever need to beat someone so quickly. Rather, turn after turn saw three or four guys killed off, until the squad panicked, was pushed away by Wind Blast, or otherwise prevented from entering combat. The final turn saw the first large melee, and by that point, the High Elves were so badly battered as to be largely ineffectual. I simply avoided melee combat with them. Careful positioning (and granted, a bit of luck) kept them from fleeing the table, and like the skirmishers, wore down the Phoenix Guard until they were likewise ineffectual; the Phoenix Guard finally made it into melee, they were reduced to merely 5 strong, facing an equal number of Chameleons. While the Chameleons fled (taking two casualties to one returned), the way combat had been positioned caused them to flee towards a fresh unit of skirmishers, which disuaded the High Elves from pursuing. The subsequent shooting phase saw the Chameleons finish off the remaing Guard. At the same time though, I'm not afraid to lose the units. Keeping the chameleons in the flanks keeps them out of the majority of ranged weaponry, but at the low cost of each unit, they have only a small number of casualties to inflict before they have proven their worth; the fact that they have pulled 2-4 times their weight so far has only made them even more useful. Because of that proven effectiveness though, they make great redirection forces; if I can keep a powerful CC unit away from the main body of my forces for even a single turn, it has, in a sense, reduced their potential power by 1/6th. Same with a shooting unit; taking a turn to shoot a unit who is nearly impossible to hit (Skirmishing, then the nature of chameleons themselves, combined with everything from long range to the ever handy cover), they will have brought firepower against a very real threat, rather than a potential one, even if the potential one is a significantly easier target. We'll be testing out some combined arms tactics before the tournament, but for now I am very reluctant to try Saurus again. Given the wide prevalence of higher-initiative units, and the vast number of units which also also feature ways of getting past heavy armor (whether by high strength, or simple penetrative power), the primary advantage of Saurus (namely, survivability) is usually negated, if only to an extent. Likewise, their slower rate of movement keeps them from keeping up with the cavalry, which would dictate tactics around the slower party. While the Skinks are also not as fast as the cavalry, they keep pace better, and with careful planning (and the exploitation of tall cover by the cavalry), the knights will hit a target unit which has suffered enough casualties to render it vulnerable. While it would not be wise to rely on such numbers, a certain level can usually be predicted, and with the number of other shooting units available (up to and including archers and a trebuchet), it can be reasonably predicted that they will have suffered a few casualties.
I will try this in my next game. When you position your skirmsihers, do you ever get within 6 inches? If not, I am assuming you either do not doubletap or you take javelins.
Always javelins. The addition of a small modicum of armor, combined with the parry save and ability to move and shoot without penalty serves me very well, not even bringing up the ability to always stand and shoot.
It seems as you have planned it well and you will probably give everybody a good fight, however I do not understand how you are to handle 3 or more big blocks of infantry. Your skinks can as you have said allways avoid them, but the cavalry are not as easy to manouver and will eventually need to see combat in order to do any good. In combat I fear they will get worn down over several rounds of fighting against large units. Guess it all comes down to you being able to chose what combats to commit to. Please write a battlereport or at least a quick summary of how your games go since I would be very interested in trying out a quicker gerilla-style army myself.
By exploiting the worry that rammramm pointed out: Staying out of the front 180-degree arc of a unit greatly increases it's chances of survival. With cavalry (especially bretonnian knights), you're looking at a large quantity of it's charge spent shifting directions in order to face a unit. A reform is faster, but (looking at the rules and FAQ, and talking with two different redshirts at the local GW) precludes the ability to charge (RAW says a normal move, as opposed to a march or charge); a Pyrrhic victory when you consider the purpose was to rearrange for the charge in the first place. With our fast movement, and more flexible manner of movement, we are able to stay along their flanks, reforming as we go to present ourselves with a round of shooting or two. Every casualty inflicted is worth three skirmishers (at the lowest end), giving us a huge advantage in that regard, especially when you consider the larger, and more effective, cavalry units are wide (or long, for Bretonnians) to the point of being unwieldy at close quarter maneuvering. Now granted, this is a handicap for my ally as well, and a rather large one at that. However, by using the various units (and, if I roll it, Comet of Cassandora) as a means of keeping an opponent within certain lanes of attack, and even sacrificing a skirmisher unit to open up a unit for a flank charge (something I am loathe to do, but sometimes these things need to be done) if it truly becomes necessary to route an opponent. When I have free time (which, between work, classes, driving, and homework, is sadly limited), I will write up how each of those two games went, as well as any other games that I happen to play; I'm in the process of coordinating with two GW redshirts to play against their armies (Warriors of Chaos and Skaven, respectively), and will probably play a game or two against my ally's Dark Elves as additional testing, plus a game or two against my brother's Dwarves. I have yet to see the former in battle (save against his high elves in larger games), and, being a Skaven player myself, I know a great deal about how the latter player runs his (his battle philosophy, deployment manner, primary targets and the like). It's my goal to try and get at least a half-dozen games in before the tournament itself, and against differing armies when possible.
I will repeat myself and request a couple of battlereports from that army since you rarely see anything but straight battleelines in any LM batlereport. However I want to testify to the value of sacrifising units as well. If your opponent gets frustrated enough because he never gets the charge in he will often jump on any chanse that he gets to charge. Make sure that whatever lies behind you is big and nasty or that it will take the unit far away from the main fighting and that 70 point unit of skinks can render a 300pt unit of whatever useless for at least a couple of turns. Have used it with great results against enemies who are protecting their gunline at all costs. They will be so focused on killing of your warmachine hunters that they wont see the bigger picture. Once again, good luck Gustaf
I've written up the first battle report, and am working on the second here: http://www.lustria-online.com/threads/1000-points-lizardmen-versus-high-elves-update-2-21-2011.6018/ Thanks for the advice; I will attempt, if the situation comes up whereby a redirection will potentially tie up a unit long enough to render it ineffective, I will give it a try. I lose nothing by doing so, given that every game until the tournament is meant for tweaking and battle theory.
Another thing to keep in mind is to be afraid of random movement stuff. I have played a couple of games against an O&G player who uses a squig hero and a unit of squig hoppers sepperatly. They are great at chasing down skinks since they can charge in any direction and never allow a stand and shoot. The same goes for doomwheels and HPA:s. Another risk is lowleveled magic which can realy hurt skirmishing T2 units. Your game against the highelves was great fun reading, seems like you outplayed him thoroughly. You also reminded me why I love the skink priest. I have played way too many games with the standard cheesy "Slann of ultimate magic and unroutable Temple Guards".
Yeah; that caveat for random movement is alarming. The Skaven ones worry me most; they've got enough power and durability that they'd probably make it into a combat, meaning the Skinks would get hit hard; on top of that, they're cheap enough to skirt in under the 250-point restriction for Rares. Looking through the various army books today, I think I have most, if not all, of the random movement creatures tracked down. The orcs have a fairly good selection of cheap ones, meaning theirs are the most likely to be seen in any real numbers (Judicious usage of magic and shooting should fix that), while the Skaven have the highest-end creatures; eliminating those will be best left to the Skink Priest, though I will try out the Terradons as a method of putting a wound or two on them (and perhaps holding them away from the main body of troops for a turn). There are some spells that worry me, but the way the army is structured should help prevent an overwhelming loss, if my opponent rolls well; with the most expensive unit at ~110 points, I'm able to simply dilute any dangerous attack amongst the dozen plus units that will be on the table (actually, the Knights would probably be must vulnerable to this, given the expense that each one is in terms of points). By judicious use of dispelling, and hoping that he gets though wonderful double-sixes at bad times (and hopefully not relying on either to occur), the magic phase should be kept relatively calm. Not to say I'm not entirely unworried about magic; the autohit attack spells definitely put a crimp in the point of skirmishing in the first place.