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KoW Are Salamanders Underpowered?

Discussion in 'Salamanders Discussion' started by BAE, Sep 16, 2016.

  1. BAE
    Temple Guard

    BAE Well-Known Member

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    I've posted this on the Mantic Forum, but I thought I would post it on here as well in case some Sally players are more active here than there:

    As I've been playing more battles I have had a building suspicion that the Salamander list in general is slightly underpowered. There is nothing that I can point my finger at to prove it, but I get the feeling all the same. Here are a few things that go through my mind:

    1. Even when I have demonstrably 'won' the deployment phase and played a tactically superior game, I can only seem to eke out a good draw or a very minor win. This compares with games where I have played worse get absolutely mauled. I've generally been playing opponents that are of similar strategic and tactical experience, and their armies (KoM, Elves etc.) seem to be far more forgiving than Sallies if played badly and effective if played well.

    2. Salamanders don't seem to feature much on competition winning rosters. When the 'top 10 player' lists are released from various competitions and shared on forums, very few (none?) seem to have used Salamanders. This could either be because they know Sallies are underpowered and won't play with them, or that the Sally players don't win, but either way the conclusion is the same.

    3. Bat reps seem to go against Sallies more than for them. It'd be interesting if a full analysis of bat reps available online was collated, but I'm pretty sure Sallies tend to lose more than win from what I've seen.

    Obviously all three of the above could be explained away - I might be a worse player than I believe, competitive players might have other reasons not to play Sallies, and a small sample size available online might be skewing my view of bat reps. However, all three existing simultaneously seems to give a little more credence to my hunch. What are others' thoughts? Have you felt the same thing at all? And if so, does anyone have any suggestions as to why this might be?
     
  2. Crowsfoot
    Skink Priest

    Crowsfoot Well-Known Member

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    I haven't played much and not competitively but my Sally army has never lost, played against Undead, Ogres, Goblins, even when I play another army and my son uses Sallies he wins.

    I know what you mean some units just seem meh, but I like that challenge of trying to make something work but sometimes you can't because the said unit is just meh.

    True you don't see them played a lot in bat reps and less win, but you have a chance to change that when you win at the October event ;)

    Are you using a set list or mix and matching?
     
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  3. BAE
    Temple Guard

    BAE Well-Known Member

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    What do you mean mixing and matching?
     
  4. Crowsfoot
    Skink Priest

    Crowsfoot Well-Known Member

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    Against your opponents are you using the same list or swapping units and trying new stuff out?
     
  5. BAE
    Temple Guard

    BAE Well-Known Member

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    I've swapped around my list only a little but my opponents have changed theirs massively, so it's the same end result.

    And the chance of me winning the event in October is somewhere between zero and zero.
     
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  6. Itepixcauh
    Razordon

    Itepixcauh Well-Known Member

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    Well I do tend to agree with you on this point, I do win games but there is always the feeling that we get less for the points.

    I really like my Salamanders don't get me wrong but the feeling that at some point we got hit a bit too much with the nerf hammer is still there.

    I won't be changing my army for the time being though :cool:
     
  7. classicflava
    Cold One

    classicflava Active Member

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    I think the problem with salamanders is there are not as many competitive builds as compared to other armies. My other main army is the Herd and i seem to do way better with them. When i have played around with building lists with other armies there seem to be more good options. I could be totally off but who knows.
     
  8. Rapax
    Skink

    Rapax Member

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    Underpowered is a strong word, but I do feel Salamanders are slightly below average.
     
  9. Jack Trowell
    Cold One

    Jack Trowell Active Member

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    Well, they are not underpowered as in "why do Tomb Kings have some units that are stricly inferior to their Vampire counts equivalent ?", an more in that they lack some of the easy to use options that most (but not all) other armies get.

    Byt being different, it gives the army a bigger learning curve, so it's harder to master it, but I think that the potential is there.

    Sure, it's possible that there a a few units that might be slightly overcosted, and some options that would have been nice to have (like a kaisenor mount option for the battle captain), so it's not false to say that they are probably slightly below average, but there is probably less difference between salamanders and so called "top tier" armies like ratkin or abyssal dwarves that there would have been in Warhammer between armies in the same "tier".
     
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  10. Rapax
    Skink

    Rapax Member

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    Kings of War is a much better balanced game than Warhammer was, no doubt about it. But it's still only in its 2nd iteration, and there is still some progress to be made as far as balance goes. The house rules made for Clash of Kings points strongly to this. If Mantic imposes house rules to their own game when holding a tournament, that means that they are admitting some things need to be fixed.
     
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  11. Itepixcauh
    Razordon

    Itepixcauh Well-Known Member

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    I must admit that the game needed some slight changes but still is far more balanced than Fantasy ever was.

    The slight gap between Salamanders and some other armies is small and can be closed with good tactics but we have to admit that against a good general with a top tier army there isn't much we can do on the long run.

    Still, I will keep playing and testing other options and builds in the league I'm playing, more to come soon!
     
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  12. Jack Trowell
    Cold One

    Jack Trowell Active Member

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    I'm not so sure about that, I think that between two veteran genreals, when you are no longer relying on crutches like spammed fliers or LB/BA, that the game would be much closer.

    The same way that a pure dwarf army lacks light fast units and must play differently (or use allies and no longer be a pure dwarf army), I still believe that salamanders have enough tools to be competitive at high level.

    See Daniel King salamander list as an exemple of a perfectly competitive salamander army (especially the second version with only one flying drake).
     
  13. Crowsfoot
    Skink Priest

    Crowsfoot Well-Known Member

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    Have you a link to the list @Jack Trowell
     
  14. BAE
    Temple Guard

    BAE Well-Known Member

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    Here. They're both on the first page (the second list is slightly further down).
     
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  15. Lord-Marcus
    Chameleon Skink

    Lord-Marcus Active Member

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    I think that used competitively they can work.
     

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