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8th Ed. Bastiladon and You

Discussion in 'Lizardmen & Saurian Ancients Tactics' started by Lizardmatt, Aug 21, 2013.

  1. Lizardmatt
    Troglodon

    Lizardmatt New Member

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    With a few games under my belt with the Bastiladon, I thought I'd share why and how these guys are awesome.
    First thing I noticed is that at Ld6, these guys head for the hills at first sign of trouble.
    You really need to run them within range of your general. If you get into combat, you will be losing combat more often than not. Being Ld9 (or 10 with the banner) makes these guys hold out in combat.

    The 2nd thing we need to get through our minds is "This is not a Steggadon". It's a 150 point buff wagon, but lacks the attacks and strength to be a combat monster. Don't be deceived by the single S10 attack; it's job isn't smashing stuff up in combat.

    So what is it's job?
    Option 1:
    Impervious Defense:
    The Bastiladon's job is to hold the flank, within range of the generals leadership. T5 2+ armor and 4 wounds will hold for a few turns against most opponents. Let the opponent hit you in the flank; it has zero impact on combat resolution.
    T5 2+ armor can take some pretty good hits. 6 Empire inner circle knights win on the charge (by 3, but with Ld10 cold blood and re-roll from BSB, you're only running ~3% of the time). Once the charge is done, the Bastiladon starts thumping away. The combat continues on grinding for 7 more turns, with each turn the bastiladon more likely winning the round of combat, and forcing the fear test each turn. Against an equal point value of 1+ knights, the Bastiladon forces more break tests, at a worse leadership, and holds out.

    Option 2:
    Feint Charge. M4 is slow. But that's not all bad. Using him to force terror tests on support units at 14-16 inches is pretty decent. Odds of actually making the charge are low, and for pesky units like gnoblar swarms, forcing a terror test, and redirecting to force another test is very useful.
    Failing the charge means you shuffle a bit, and then blast the beam in the magic phase.

    Option 3:
    Pew-Pew! Bound 3. Throw a die at it (or 2 dice in a good phase). Half the time, you get a massive magic missile out of the spell. 2D6 S5 hits? 2D6 S6 hits? On a 3+!!! I really cannot understate how good this is.
    Think of it like this. Ruby ring is 25 points for a D6 S4 hits on a 3+. Solar Engines Beam of Chotec is the worse 1/6th of the time, the same 2/6ths of the time, and totally awesome 3/6ths of the time.

    Options 4:
    Bask in the Sun. While Init 2 Saurus aren't exactly tearing up the charts, Init 3 Temple Guard, and Init 3 cold ones are pretty good. Init 5 Skinks are pretty decent. While it isn't super exciting, it's free, and you only need to bother to try and get it when it matters.


    So in summary, your ideal location is when you can physically block charges with your deep base, and be within range of the general/bsb. Your ideal opponent is smaller support units, which often are the ones that opponents put out on flanks. Your Beam of Chotec and the Solar engine let you boost your magic and combat phases when you don't get locked down in combat.


    I left Sotec out, as I'm waiting on the FAQ before giving them a try.

    -Matt
     
    Scalenex likes this.
  2. THE_LAIR
    Saurus

    THE_LAIR New Member

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    like the summery of your tactical findings :D

    i do have simmilar results using the basilladon in a support role.. alltho i do use the ark a lot as wel wen taking swarms to battle
     
  3. Fool
    Jungle Swarm

    Fool New Member

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    I really like the Bastiladon. Great summary. I agree it is a great support unit and I can confirm that it is not particularly great in combat. Took me 3 rounds of combat last game to kill 13 Zombies with it :)

    One thing I would like to add to your post is that it does matter if your Bastiladon takes a charge in the front or the flank. The flank of the Bastiladon is wider (10 cm) than the front (5 cm), allowing your opponent to throw more attacks at the Bastiladon if they attack it in its flank.
     
  4. DavidSS
    Skink

    DavidSS Member

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    Excellent analysis! Definitely worth the read :)
     
  5. Lizardmatt
    Troglodon

    Lizardmatt New Member

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    That is a good point. The extra attacks into the flank isn't as big of a deal as being unable to reform. If 6 knights hit you in the flank, you can't reform to turn until you kill 2 of them (you can't reform to touch 4 instead of 6).
    I didn't mention it in the post, but you do want to turn around for the +1 to hit as soon as you can.

    -Matt
     
  6. Myster2
    Saurus

    Myster2 New Member

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    I was just about to post exactly the opposite so I'll just include it in your post. I have a horrible time with this guy and fine it him to be not worth the points costs in the last few games i've played. Here is why

    1) He is 150pts, i have really limited options in the new LM book to make a competitive army so I find i am looking for points. At 150pts i can get a good scar vet cowboy with some points left over that hits harder, has the same toughness, has a better armor save, has more attacks, is more mobile and a higher weapon skill. I can also give him a ward save.

    2) I never know what to do with the bastilidon. If he gets in combat with anything with ranks he runs away. If he gets into combat with a chariot he loses. Therefor from my understanding i have a 150pt chaff holder upper. It takes him on average 2 turns to kill a chaff unit (he hits 1.5 times per round, wounds 1 time on average from that, if the chaff is not a war beast or infantry he can't stomp it.) So he ends up being a great march blocker for the enemy.

    3) With High Magic i'm constantly trying to get some spells off so I can switch them out. I rarely have the dice to throw at the ark and i keep forgetting about it.

    4) I can't figure out what the +1 initiative is for. None of our troops really benefit from it like you said above. If skinks are in combat they usually hit first anyways. Saurus are only I 1 so making them 2 doesnt help. Temple guard having I3 can be useful but i don't charge them up the middle usually anyways.

    I'm still going to play more games with him before I shelf him and his twin (i pre-ordered them, last time i do that).
     
  7. T`hinker`er
    Salamander

    T`hinker`er Active Member

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    Pre-order a Bastiladon? You must be new to the "GW" hobby. You have my sympathies.
     
    airjamy likes this.
  8. GCPD
    Bastiladon

    GCPD Active Member

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    Don't forget it means I4 Scar-Veterans and Oldbloods. That can make a huge difference, if you're running them in/near your Saurus blocks.

    So much so, that I'd recommend going Halberds over Great Weapons if you're keeping a Bastiladon nearby.
     
  9. Worloch
    Jungle Swarm

    Worloch New Member

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    +1 In from the Bastiladon can be likened to -1 St from the Frost Phoenix.

    First, a caveat: I am well aware that +1 In is no where near as good as -1 St. This is not comparing how good they are relative to each other.


    Alright, with that out of the way, on to my point.

    -1 St from the Frosty is awesome but it is even better combined with the Lore of Shadow spell, Enfeebling. However, Enfeebling suffers from randomness - could be -1 St, could be -3. It can also be countered or dispelled. Combining the Frosty Blizzard Aura with Enfeebling basically guarantees you a -2 St, and that is not to be discounted. That makes a Great Weapon in to a hand weapon that ASL and can't parry.


    So, +1 In from the Bastiladon isn't as great as -1 St, but in order to get it, all you have to do is be nearby. It can't be countered or dispelled. It turns a 5 in 6 (~83%) chance of losing dudes to Pit or Purple Sun in to a 4 in 6 (~67%), which while not a great place to be, is better than you were. Combine it with Hand of Glory, though, and suddenly it can be quite good. A boosted Hand of Glory gives you +D3 to Ws and In (and all the other stats of course). In 1 LM units therefore could be boosted somewhere between In 2 and In 4, which is good. Add in the +1 from the Bastiladon and your range is 3 to 5, which is really good. Now your units have a really good chance of going first against many of the other units out there, or at least going at the same time. The boost to Ws in addition to the boost in In means that you have a good chance of hitting on 3's, and forcing the opponent to hit you on 4's.


    To basically sum up, I'd say just take the +1 In as a minor boost that can be useful, but if you combine it with HoG, it can push you over the top. Ws 6, St 4, To 4, At 2, In 5 Saurus Warriors could be scary indeed.
     
  10. Cheeto
    Skink

    Cheeto New Member

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    I enjoy my basitldon so much. Last game he really was worth his points. Taking off half the wounds of a hydra. After the bound spell went off my opponent started to target it with his one remaining bolt thrower (nailed the other one turn 1 with walk between the worlds and ancient steg blowpipe HEHE). The solar engine is a huge threat to his hydras, which took heat off more important combat blocks like my TG and Saurus. Then the bugger was holding up a Dark elf dread-lord Killy chariot for for two turns, preventing it from reaching the main combat (even caused a wound with S10).
     
  11. Lizardmatt
    Troglodon

    Lizardmatt New Member

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    Yeah, the more games I get in, the more I see the Bastiladon(s!) as the big winner in the new rules.
    The bound spell is just so good for a 3+.
    Buffing Temple Guard to init 3 let me take a purple sun on the chin and survive (slaan's init 3 too, but auto passes look out).

    As for hydra killing, I got a laser off and put 2 wounds on the hydra (ie, neutered the breath) and then forced the hydra into a charge or be shot again situation with the bastiladon. Even against the 7 attacks that hit on 3's with re-roll, the T5 and 2+ armor held up (I took 2 wounds) and delt one in response. The calming effect of the slaan kept me from running (tested on an 8 with re-roll), and at that point, it was over for the hydra. Hero into the front cut him down.

    -Matt
     
  12. The Hunted
    Carnasaur

    The Hunted Active Member

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    The +1 to In doesn't do thát much for our Lizardmen. Yes, you are more protected vs Pit or purple sun, but we still have that as a big weakness.
    As for combining it with HoG: HoG can be dispelled and countered...and it suffers from the same randomness as enfeebling does. And even if you do manage to get it off, and roll a +3, it still isn't thát game breaking.
    -2 (or more) to strenght is massive, and really does swing entire combats.

    So while you said it's not a power comparison;
    My point is that while a +1 to In is nice, but without HoG, not very helpfull. And HoG can be dispelled.



    That being said,

    I still like the 'Don, because he is a perfect bodyguard for the Slann. He will always stick near the Slann, so benefits from his high Ld. That means he isn't that likely to run away.
    His laser beam is also pretty impressive at clearing chaff or thinning numbers. While you don't always have dice left to chuck at it, it's still an option you have to clear away a rat dart, fast cav, scouts, eagles and the like.
    Soul Quench also is easier to trade in for another spell (with loremaster) because you have a MM on the back of your Bastiladon anyways.

    I find he is quite survivable, at least enough to make him usefull. Yes he can die, and often he will. But then again, he is only 150 points and is an excellent all-round support monster.

    The Hunted
     
  13. Worloch
    Jungle Swarm

    Worloch New Member

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    Indeed, HoG can be countered or dispelled just as Enfeebling can be countered or dispelled. HoG is random in magnitude, just as Enfeebling is random in magnitude. We do agree on those points, and I did point that out in my previous post.

    My point in comparing Blizzard Aura + Enfeebling to Bask in the Sun + Hand of Glory is to illustrate the stabilizing effect the aura's can have when combined with a random element. 'Possible D3' + 'definite +1' is a lot easier to rely on than 'possible D3' alone.

    Will In 2 really do a whole lot better than In 1? Not really, or at least, not a majority of the time. That is where Bastiladon alone leaves you, at least with Saurus Warriors. On the other hand that is also where Hand of Glory alone leaves you 1/3 of the time. Combine the two though, and you're looking at In 3 minimum, and that is a whole lot better than In 1. That let's you go at the same time with a whole bunch of units in the game. 2/3 of the time you will do better than that. In 4 lets you go first against a lot of units, and gives you simultaneous against a bunch of others. In 5 puts you at the top of the stack a majority of the time, and you can't get there with Hand of Glory alone.


    Sure, +1 In is not great by itself, and with HoG not extremely useful, but that is why I ended my post on that note. You don't really take the Basiladon for +1 In alone, but if you do take a Bastiladon, you get a +1 In aura you may as well maximize on.


    And again, I recognize right off that the Bastiladon +1 In isn't as great as -1 St from the Frost Phoenix, but the Bastiladon is also significantly cheaper than a Frost Phoenix.
     
  14. Dreadgrass
    Ripperdactil

    Dreadgrass Member

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    In a nutshell, none either of the bastiladons abilities are worth his points alone, but if your Solar engine popping the bound spell each turn AND passively buffing your nearby units, AND providing a mini-tarpitesque unit to hold up the enemy support charges etc., he's a steal. "The sum of his parts" and all that.

    Likewise, the Arc version doesn't have any ground-breakingly powerful abilities, but if he nets you a couple of bonus swarm bases, holds up an enemy flanking unit and weakens the enemy line with his weight of low strength attacks/shots he's a decent investment.
     
  15. The Hunted
    Carnasaur

    The Hunted Active Member

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    Fair point. Especially the highlighted part. I like the way you think :)

    And this, this is so much true.

    The Hunted
     
  16. Soteks Prophet
    Skink

    Soteks Prophet New Member

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    This seems to be a really really really good use - cheap special terror can only be a good thing vs non-ItP opponents! :smug:
     
  17. Chunk
    Saurus

    Chunk Member

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    I did exactly this in a game against Bretonnians, declared a 16" charge against a unit of his peasants, the knights were too far forward so he had to test on Ld 6 or something and promptly ran away, overall it worked pretty well.
     
  18. Lawot
    Kroxigor

    Lawot Active Member

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    I just took a Bastiladon in my first game with the new book (finally!). To be honest, I kept forgetting about the Beam in the Magic phase...until the last turn. Then I one-diced it and took a chunk out of the last remaining Orc block.

    ...I'm not sure it mattered all that much strategically, but the satisfaction of it made it all worthwhile.
     
  19. Lizardmen_Jeff
    Saurus

    Lizardmen_Jeff New Member

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    I'm quickly finding Basti's to be 10% randomness and 90% awesomeness

    Might be my local meta and players but if it goes off once and does a decent chunk of damage, even if you roll bad on # of hits but high on str, they are much less inclined to let it go off again!
     
  20. Sleboda
    Troglodon

    Sleboda Active Member

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    => I'd like to add that it might be best of all to turn your rear to the charger. I know there is debate on it, but it's legitimate to say that both the +1 To Hit and the S10 come into play only on attacks to the rear.

    It's best to not claim the S10 in other circumstances since you cannot prove you are entitled to it.

    If you show your rear, you'll get all the benefits and none of the arguments.
     

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