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AoS EotG effect replacing summon

Discussion in 'Seraphon Discussion' started by Aginor, Jan 16, 2018.

  1. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning

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    Hey y'all!
    As you all know the summon (which is supposed to be one of the strongest EotG effects) is pretty useless right now.
    So I am searching for a good replacement. Here are my ideas:

    1. Shield bubble. Remember Star Wars Episode 1? The Gungans have dinosaurs carrying shield generators that block blaster fire. I suggest something like that. An 18" bubble blocking all shooting for models outside of it.

    2. Same as 1 but only blocking enemy mortal wounds. Maybe with a roll like 4+ or so.

    3. An additional teleport (Lords of Space and time). I like this because it is close to the original idea and it would free up the Slann to take the other trait, for example, or have the chance for three teleport

    4. Reinforcing an existing Skink unit within 9" with 1d6 models or a Saurus unit with 1d3 models. (up to its original size).
    This is also fairly close to the original summon, but free.
    I like this one as well because for example it would help Guards to overcome their low wound problem and make us sturdier in general.

    5. Choose any of the lower results. This would make the Engine more reliable.

    6. Keep the summon.


    ....or maybe the player should choose between the above options like choosing an SCE prayer or an artefact.

    So what do y'all think?
     
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  2. Canas
    Skar-Veteran

    Canas Well-Known Member

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    First issue, though this is more a general issue with the EoTG's various effects; most of em don't fit nicely as the various effects are all over the place, sometimes you'l get a heal, sometimes you'l get a bonus turn, sometimes you'l do damage. Out of what you've listed the reinforcing fits best seeing as we already have a healing ability.

    As for he actual abilities 1 & 2 are probaly too weak, especially for a roll of 14-17. Having a shield for 1 turn with that kind of unreliability isn't worth it. Not uness that shield is horrificly overpowered (and no, blocking all shooting wouldn't be overpowered enough yet apart from the occasional matchup against a pure shooting army that has no melee capabilities.)

    3 seems a bit better, but isn't reliable enough to free up the slann, nor reliable enough to build a strategy around (aside from when you field multiple EoTG's maybe). Also, how often do we actually teleport in a game? Sounds like an ability that's usefull on paper, but won't shine in practise as it doesn't proc reliably on the moments it's actually usefull.

    4 is good, though feels a bit weak for 14-17 given that 3-5 already heals D3 wounds. Tbh, 3-5 should simply heal D3 or reinforce D3 depending on the type of model it "heals". Minor sidenote, terradon riders are a "skink" unit. Can I now reinforce 1d6 terradon riders? If so it'd push it just into acceptable I guess as in that case you could surround the engine with everything you got and simply gain loads of reinforcements in one go that are actually valuable (lets face it, 1d6 normal skinks wouldn't really help much, but 1d6 terradons on multiple units in addition to 1d6 skinks on multiple units actually starts looking like something, could work well with that one skink based starhost that sort of combines thunderquake and shadowstrike aspects.)

    5 isn't horrible, but a tad boring. Also, 14-17 isn't common enough to add that much to the reliability, it's only a 15% chance or so of the top of my head. It'l help making it a fraction more reliable but the chance is minimal. Basicly 1 turn you may choose the effect in an entire game this way on average.
     
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  3. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning

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    I think we have several points to actually discuss here:

    a: The Engine of the Gods is unreliable to begin with, that is its whole premise. With a Slann, Kroak, and/or Curse of Fates you can improve that chance and you have a greater influence on the outcome. I think that this randomness is OK, we don't have that many of those random rules.
    Discarding a die can change the result by an average of around four I think. Actually I am too bad at statistics to properly do the math on that but I am pretty sure your chance to get that result improve dramatically.

    b: Talking about those Skinks units: Reinforcing 1d6 Terradons means 3-18 wounds restored. That's pretty much. I tend to say it would be conceived as too strong. For those reinforcements My opinion is this:
    - Reinforcing Skinks and Saurus Warriors could be 1d6 or even 1d6+3 to be helpful.
    - Reinforcing Guards 1d6 would be gamebreaking against many armies if it works, I'd say 1d3 is OK.
    - Reinforcing Terradons or Rippers.... I think 1d6 actually wouldn't be too bad, here is why:
    -- Rippers and Terradons are squishy. If they were a group of three you don't need reinforcements because they most likely will be dead after first contact.
    -- IF you had a bigger group (6 or 9) the reinforcement _potentially_ gets a lot stronger. A six is potentially game-breaking now. BUT we have three things that lessen that impact: Firstly: The ability is not exactly reliable (with a Slann and a healthy EotG a 1in5 or 1in4 chance that you even get that result, and then an average of 3 models restored) and you have to be in range, which is my next point.
    Secondly: Rippers are deep strikers, and so are Terradons most of the time. So they are not very likely to be in range for the ability except if you teleport your EotG to the front (which you probably shouldn't) or keep them from the deepstriking role, so playing them defensively. Also if your tactic relies on it...well, you HAVE to keep both your Slann and the EotG alive and healthy or it won't work. So the Seraphon player will probably decide to reinforce another unit instead, do mortal wounds, or heal.

    I still like the reinforcement option a lot since it adds a meaningful choice for discarding your Slann dice. Right now the mortal wounds options are the only options that are worthwhile for the higher rolls.


    c. About the teleport: I honestly think it is one of our strongest abilities. Imagine teleporting a unit of fully buffed Saurus Warriors behind a squishy enemy archer unit, or a Dread Saurian or two Snake Bastiladons near some enemy heroes. A unit of Razordons and an Astrolith Bearer are also pretty scary when teleported.
    Also if you consider objective playing (instead of destruction of the enemy) teleporting becomes strong because you can teleport a REALLY slow but sturdy unit or two onto an objective, such as a Bastiladon or a unit of Guards and their Warden.

    d. About option 5: Yeah it is a bit boring, but I like that it adds reliability. A bit of math: 4 out of 18 are 22% Together with that chance you get for any other result anyway (16.6% for the heal and 22% for the other two) you have a better than 1 in 3 chance to get your favourite result and a very good chance to get the one next to it. That's pretty good. A Slann improves that even more.
    Normally if at least two of your dice show a 5 or 6 it is impossible to get the heal if you need it. Now you may be able to still choose it (although the mortal wounds options are probably going to be favoured my most player in that situation). Also it is the simplest option and one that your opponent is most likely to agree on. Remember that we cannot enforce that rule easily, we have to talk our opponent into accepting it. And I can assure you my friend I play most against surely will not accept option 4 (reinforcements) if it has the chance to restore 6 Rippers to live even though the chance is not good.
     
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  4. Killer Angel
    Skink Priest

    Killer Angel Well-Known Member

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    What if I have kroxigors?

    I would like something as "1d6 models for battleline units, 1d3 models for other units". But this could be a problem for saurus guards...
     
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  5. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning

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    Yeah I haven't really thought about how exactly it would work, and for which units, without making it needlessly complex. That's why I chose the two main categories "Skinks" and "Saurus" because for heroes or monsters it does nothing. Kroxigor would unfortunately fall in neither of the categories so that's bad luck. Same for Razordons and Salamanders.
    I think it is the horde units that should profit from that most anyway, becasue those are our way of dealing with the mortal wounds. The flyers are already a stretch but you cannot omit them while retaining an easy wording.
     
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  6. Canas
    Skar-Veteran

    Canas Well-Known Member

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    It isn't so much as unreliable as much as that it's all over the place. The special abilities don't fullfill the same/a similar niche. Too much variance what each ability does. I'd much prefer it if all the possibilities were say, defensive mechanics in roughly the same sized bubble, or at least better ones having better range never worse ( a heal, a +1 to save, a -1 to hit, reinforcements, an extra save like disgustingly resilient etc.). Since it's abilities are all over the place it no longer fills a clear niche which makes it rather annoying to build a tactic around. If all the possibilities were in the same niche you could at least build a tactic around (e.g. if all are defensive it could be the lynchpin keeping your army up, or if all were offensive it'd be the spearpoint of your charge). Though again, not so much an issue with your suggestions as it is with the general design of the EoTG.


    Wait you mean reinforce 1 unit? I read it in the same manner as the heal works, so affecting all units. That does significantly reduce it effects. In that case it definitly won't be overpowered. Possibly it'd even be too weak. Too unlikely to proc at a time where you can actually reinforce a meaningfull unit.

    I do like the idea as a mechanic though, reinforcements don't seem to be punished by extra pointcosts (Why is this anyway? They reduced summoning to a glorified thunderstrike, but skeletons getting back up over and over or demons spawning out of nothing cuz of a banner is somehow fine?). Plus it's actually an interesting mechanic. However I'm guessing that at 14-17 with a range requirement it'l just be too unreliable for 1d3 or 1d6 to really be worth it.

    Also on the notion that guards might become OP with this.The ability doesn't proc that often, doesn't spawn that many, the EoTG can be shot (easily removing the option for it to even proc this ability, it only needs 2 wounds to lose acces..). Plus the general issues that guards have still hold. So I don't think this'l be any real problem.


    If it procs at the right time it can be genius, that is true. But with how unreliable it is to get this specific one it is not something that you can work into your strategy. You can't count on getting that crucial extra teleport. Which means that your tactic will already be build around not having it. At which point I expect that most times when it procs you're just sorta going to be sitting there going like "well I already got everything in the position it should be in, now what?"


    Your math is wrong :p it's not 4 out of 18 it's 34 out of 216 for a roll of 14-17 which is ~15%. The heal only has a chance of about 5% initially, the long range attack about 33% and the AoE 46% and the double turn about 1-2%.
    The most likely result reminas the AoE by a landslide, followed by the long ranged attack. Should you prefer the healyou're only getting it at a 20% chance. Admittadly it makes the heall a hell of a lot more likely to be accesible without having the EoTG be wounded, which could be valuable. But if you're not interested in the heal it's mot likely not going to chance all that much...

    I do agree it's the easiest option to sell, especially against the type of people that fear rippers and the like far too much and thus will refuse the reinforcing mechanic without even actually considering it.
     
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  7. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning

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    Ah ok I agree then. I still think it is a good support unit for bigger games, not being tied to a particular tactic but all of the effects are somewhat useful.

    If the range is good enough I can imagine it being pretty useful, for example reinfircing the obligatory Skink screening unit which is likely in range due to conga lines or something.
    More than one unit sounds pretty strong to me.

    Yeah it is kinda weird that reinforcements of existing units cost nothing while new units cost. Especially weird for Tzeentch Horrors for example.

    I think it needs 5 wounds to get worse, you still have 3 dice at 4 wounds.

    Well we have a lot of great synergy units so I guess I would be happy to teleport one more Skink Priest, Starpriest, some handlers or an Astrolith Bearer or get some unit out of the action by porting it away.

    Uhh yeah my statistics math is very weak right now. I still think the EotG Is fine since the most common roll results are also the most useful. I expect it in a lot of builds because of the mortal wounds.
     
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  8. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning

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    Waiiiitt..... Can you explain the math again?
    My statistics lecture was loooong ago but my result is that if you roll three dice for a result between 3 and 18 and want to have the result between 14 and 17 is ... 54 of 216 which is 4 out of 16 = 25%
    Where is the error?
     
  9. Canas
    Skar-Veteran

    Canas Well-Known Member

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    Issue is that most likely it's going to proc once in a game, maybe twice. On top of that it can proc when it has no use (nothing in range, or only unit in range is already at maximum size). In all likelyhood it'l end up adding 1 skink per game on average due to that. Which isn't exactly mindblowing. Yea it might occasionally win some matches, but so does rolling a 6 at the right time..

    Also simple way to stop it from reingorcing rippers and terradons, just say it only reinforces non mounted skinks, though in that case 1 unit is definitly too lil with 1d6.

    Horrors are really weird yea... summoning costs points, splitting costs points, reinforcing doesn't... there's no consistency in them. At least that is somewhat tzeentchian I suppose, convoluted rules and plans and all that

    my mistake, looked at the wrong collumn, 2 wounds is for his feet


    I think that it'l regularly feel a bit pointless, but in fairness, so does every other ability he has right now (apart from the double turn). In between the varying ranges and effects it's quite likely to have something proc when it just serves no purpose as there are no viable targets.

    Meh, I mostly just take issue at how all over the place the thing is. It lacks a coherent function/design. But yea, apart from that it's more or less fine in most situations I suspect. Not so much in need of a buff as much as it's in need of making up its mind as to what it actually wants to be :p

    Eh possible combinations:

    • 14
      • 6 + 6 + 2: 3 combo's
      • 5 + 5 + 4: 3 combo's
      • 4 + 4 + 6: 3 combo's
      • 6 + 5 + 3: 6 combo's
    • 15
      • 6 + 6 + 3: 3 combo's
      • 6 + 5 + 4: 6 combo's
      • 5 + 5 + 5: 1 combo
    • 16
      • 6 + 6 + 4: 3 combo's
      • 5 + 5 + 6: 3 combo's
    • 17
      • 6 + 6 + 5: 3 combos
    Total: 34
    I'm not sure how you got to 54 unless you counted something double?
     
  10. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning

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    Ok then I don't get why it is 216 because to get to the 216 we do count the triplets as three don't we?
     
  11. Canas
    Skar-Veteran

    Canas Well-Known Member

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    there's 6x6x6 combinations, which is 216.
    And no, triplets count as 1, only 1 combination to roll 1,1,1 after all (none of the dice can swap values as they already have the same value)
     
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  12. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning

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    Thanks for the update, I really have to read that stuff about Laplace et al again...
     
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