7th Ed. How to Handle Cheese (Updated: July 13th, '09)

How to Handle Cheese:
Your guide to dealing with a 'Win-at-any-cost-player'

We all know them. We've all lost horribly to them. We've all wondered how to handle them. Some are close friends, while others we wouldn't choose to hang around with outside of the hobby. Some are excellent players or 'min/maxers', others are compensating for their poor play. Some know all the rules and play by them, while others don't know the first thing about the rules and don't care. Some play exactly by the rules until turn 6, while others will cheat you if you go to grab a snack between turns. Regardless of the type, there is always a heavy sigh and roll of the eyes (not dice) when you have to square off against one of these opponents.

This thread is dedicated to the discussion of how to deal with a 'cheeser' on and off table, how to differentiate between a true 'cheeser' and a talented player, and of course, where should the line be drawn. I will continue to add to this guide as I think of material and as topics are discussed in the thread. Its purpose is to help players (new and veteran alike) recognize a ‘cheeser’ situation and help deal with it appropriately. Let's get started.



What is a 'Cheeser'?
I'll use the term 'cheeser' in the guide frequently in reference to a win-at-any-cost player. These types of players are usually quite easy to recognize once you understand their objective. ‘Cheesers’ will frequently push the rules to the limit in the aspects of army creation and will sometimes do the same on the board as well, challenging rules, calling their opponents on technicalities if they feel it will benefit them and just overall doing their best to make it difficult for you to win by petty and illegitimate means. Frequently, these types of players will run lists that are one dimensional focusing on maximizing a single tactic to overpower their enemies. They learn to play their list as well as possible and can be a nightmare to deal with if they're 'hot' on their dice rolls. Sometimes the army lists are ‘one trick ponies’ while others focus on a multitude of tactics that exploit the rules to allow for the largest number in the “W” column. That is, after all, what they care about.



How to spot a ‘Cheeser’:
Is he really a ‘cheeser’? How can you tell? What signs do you look for? Below are a few ways to tell if your concern is really legitimate or if you’ll make yourself look like a fool by calling ‘Cheese!’ Most are easy to spot; however, some signs are much more subtle and are sometimes misinterpreted. Let’s look at the differences.

Get the Facts:
Before you cry ‘cheese’ make sure you do your research and that you are adequately informed about the actual issue. Some armies lend their strengths to a specific tactic and rely heavily upon it to get the job done. While no army in the Games Workshop line-up is grossly imbalanced, different lists lean heavily towards specific troop types. Make sure you understand the basic mechanics of how the suspected ‘cheesers’ army functions. You’re not likely to make friends with a Tzeentch player whose list is too magic heavy or a Dwarf player who has too many guns. Do your research, check some forums out, read up on the suggested tactics for the army or talk to other players who use the same army if you’re unfamiliar. There’s nothing worse than crying ‘cheese’ when you’re up against a talented player whose army naturally preys on yours. Save yourself the embarrassment and get your facts straight first.

Judge the Talent:
Take a look at your suspect. Are they a naturally strong player? Have they been war gaming all their life? Do they have a firm grasp on the rules? Do they understand how their army plays correctly? All these questions should be answered from your perception of the player. Someone who is able to talk with you after the game and offer intelligent commentary on what went wrong versus what went right, from your side of the table, most likely has an understanding of how your two armies interact with one another. This doesn’t mean they aren’t a ‘cheeser’ but is a good indication that they’re not trying to take advantage of you or anyone else. Anyone with any kind of Warhammer experience will be able to pick the talented players out, with a few games. Frequently though, players who are well informed but competitive aren’t necessarily intentionally ‘cheesing’. If it’s obvious to you that the player needs all the help he can get, that may be the time to raise an eyebrow and look a little deeper.

Analyze Their Motives:
Why does it look like this person plays the game? It is imperative that you get a clear understanding of what the potential ‘cheesers’ motives are. Signs that scream ‘cheese’ include; someone who is obsessed with the “W” column, someone who always wants to use the ‘best and most powerful’ army/list, someone who always insists they are right when the chips are down for them, someone who gets upset when their die rolls go bad. All of these are indicators but not necessarily the sealing piece of evidence that you’re looking at a ‘cheeser’. Also, attitude makes its big appearance here. A player’s attitude towards the gathering of players, his army, his opponents’ armies and general game play is a huge indicator of what his motives really are. It’s pretty easy to spot someone who is there to clash some swords and roll the dice in contrast to the people that agonize over every die roll and have a tough time taking the heat when their army is on the edge of destruction. After a few games, you’ll get a clear idea of what your prospective ‘cheesers’ motives are, which will tell you what makes him ‘tick’.

With a good observation and a little Warhammer gaming experience you should easily be able to pick out a ‘cheeser’. If you’re not sure, give it some time and watch. Ultimately the hobby is about having a good time enjoying a dice game that equates to a battle. You can only set the pieces up and throw the die. If your goal is to grow as a player whilst enjoying the company of other like minded folks and the majority of your group has this attitude, someone who doesn’t fit will stick out like a sore thumb. But remember, having talent, being competitive, having the head knowledge, putting together an effective list and wanting to win are not always condemning factors. The attitude is the key.



On Table Tactics:
There is nothing worse than being caught off guard by a cheeser. By the time the terrain is placed, all you can do is watch in horror as artillery piece after artillery piece comes out of the case, only to drop down on the table ready to wipe out your troops. Of course, sometimes you can make selection for your opponent, other times its a 'tournament' where your opponents are preselected. If you have the choice, the best option is to avoid a game that you know won't be fun for everyone (that includes both sides). This part of the guide is dedicated to times when you are forced to play the ‘cheeser’ or get caught off guard at the beginning of the game.

Keep the Game Moving:
There is nothing worse than not knowing what your ‘cheeser’ opponent's list is like until deployment. At this point, the only thing that you can do is just watch his list hit the table as you come to the realization that it's the perfect counter to yours. Save yourself the embarrassment and move forward, instead of asking to cancel the game. The best thing to do in this scenario is to make sure the game moves forward. Play your best and throw the rest of the game to the die. Avoid game boggers, tricky rules and any other lengthy distractions in favor of getting through the game to have a chance at a more favorable opponent. If you have a disagreement with a tricky rule, consider letting him make the ruling (it often will result in a shorter game, which includes a bigger massacre most likely), offer to roll a die for the ruling or ask a third objective party who has a firm grasp on the rules (where applicable). Picking the option that takes the least amount of time, while still keeping the game as fair as possible is generally the best, even if it means you have to 'fudge' the rules a bit. The worst possible thing is to get in an argument with a 'cheeser' during the game. Even if you are right, these players are generally not open to discussion and you making your case will just waste more time that could be spent playing a more enjoyable game.

Lose Gracefully:
No one likes to lose. Everyone likes to win. Most players enjoy winning the most, when it is a close game. I for one, particularly enjoy it when the momentum swings back and forth several times with big rolls contributing in the direction the game takes. More often than not, you will loose against a ‘cheeser’ (baring a miracle of rolls). As hard as it is, don't make it harder. Loose with grace, keep your head up high, admit defeat and leave it at that. Whimpering, whining or complaining will only add to your disgrace (of being a poor looser) and remind the ‘cheeser’ of most likely why he chose his list in the first place. Remember that he would most likely in the same manner if the sides were switched and he was the looser. Suck it up, be a man, play your best and shake his hand at the end. Give the feeling off that you're not angry about the game. If any emotion, you should portray that you are more unimpressed and disinterested in his victory than anything else.

Laugh and Have Fun:
Remember that your 'cheeser' opponent relishes in crushing victories and isn't used to seeing someone who can laugh and have fun whilst loosing. A greater percentage of 'cheesers' are grossly competitive and focus on the "W" column over their opponents’ enjoyment of the game. It will utterly confound them to see an opponent who is genuinely happy to be playing the game, win or loose, and will set them on the ‘back peddle’ if you want to confront them after the game. Think about it like this, the dice are telling an epic story on the battle field and you get to play the part of general. Turn it into a story and enjoy watching your troops be heroic in the face of insurmountable odds. Or identify with the fact that they’ve broken and fled from combat due to the terrifying creatures that they face. (J.J.) If anyone else is watching the game you also won't have to worry about looking like a poor looser, despite the fact that cannon ball after cannon ball rampages through your Sarus infantry blocks. If you can't laugh off a loss because things aren't going your way, how much different are you from your cheesey opponent (aside from the fact that you have a balanced list)?



Off Table Tactics:
I am going to preface this section with a few comments in the form of a warning. The ideas in this section must be read and carefully thought about, before you try them. While some are harmless, others can cause potential social catastrophes for your gaming group and generate hurt feelings, angry tempers, broken models, and drama that is unneeded for any game situation, regardless of how competitive. Don’t take this as a ‘Don’t Try This at Home’ warning, but a ‘You Better Think Seriously About Trying This’ warning. Remember, that ultimately, we don’t want to discourage people from joining the hobby, our goal is to simply melt the cheese or put it in a sandwhich.

Don’t Play Again:
This is probably an easier tactic and is usually the simplest way to avoid dealing with that annoying ‘cheeser’ who insists on stacking his W column like Jenga blocks. Refusing to play can be done politely in most cases, but sometimes you get cornered and have to be direct. Depending on how comfortable you are, you may want to consider using an excuse instead of divulging the real reason you don’t want to get your models out just to put them back in their case again. There’s nothing wrong with sitting out and watching the action sometimes (if there’s some going on around you), and most players can understand when someone needs a break. If you feel comfortable addressing the issue, make sure that you’re honest with the player with out being accusatory. Don’t point the finger at him but rather at yourself. This makes it easier to break the news to ‘SteamTankJoe’ rather than using “You…” sentences. Make sure you’re discrete as well. No one wants to be called out in front of the whole group about how cheesy their army is and can make you look like you’re a poor sport, if you opinion is not supported by the rest of the group. Pull the player aside and explain to them using statements like, “Hey man, I know that you want to play a game with me right now, but I just don’t have fun when I face a list that is <insert cheesy reason here>. It’s not really fun for me and that’s what we’re all here to do.” Consider offering to play the person if they’d like to revise their list a bit and offer to help (provided you have the knowledge of the army they’re using). Ultimately, a “No thanks!” should suffice in most cases, and if you don’t plan on seeing this person again, it’s probably better that way anyways.

Revise Your List:
This is another great tactic that I’ve seen used over and over. It’s also considered common practice with friendly gaming groups. One person will bring a cheesy list, and the others will adopt lists that are equipped to deal with the ‘cheeser’ in an even more cheesy way. In gaming groups, it’s best to usually keep your nose in your own list (so to speak) and modify it to meet the incoming threat. Collaboration between players can be extremely subversive and can cause big problems (see Team Up). Sometimes you won’t have an answer that effectively deals with the cheese level and in that case you’ll have to look at other tactics. Don’t use the modified list for all your opponents for risk of making yourself look just as bad. Also let the ‘cheeser’ know that you’re going to be using a different list than what he’s seen you playing most of the afternoon. Most of them are so confident in their army’s abilities that they won’t care much and may even consider it a challenge. For this tactic to effectively work your modified list should be something that will crush the ‘cheesers’ list, if possible. This opens the doorway for some constructive conversation after the game and may give you an opportunity to explain what you really think of the ‘cheesers’ list with solid evidence to back it up in the game you just played.

Talk to the ‘Cheeser’:
We now start to enter the area where good social skills are a must. The risk increases from just a bad game to a bad game day for everyone. Addressing the issue head on is sometimes the best possible solution and sometimes it’s the absolute worst. As the confronter you’ll need to make sure that you use tact, politeness, diplomacy, timing and communication skills all to your advantage. Otherwise you face a worst case scenario of an angry ‘cheeser’ and no one wants to deal with an angry player. If you feel uncomfortable confronting a ‘cheeser’, it is important that you don’t. Talk with a trusted player in the group privately and see what the best course of action is. If you’re in charge, you group is expecting you to take action most likely, and it will look worse on you if you do nothing. Confrontation is never easy, but you can do things to help you win the ‘cheeser’ over instead of driving him away. First, never ever confront the ‘cheeser’ in public. You’re putting him on the defensive by doing that and won’t get the desired results. Privacy is important. This means you have to choose a good location. A corner of the room, outside while you smoke or a separate room with food, (if there is such a thing) are great places, provided they don’t suffer from random foot traffic. As stated above, don’t use any accusatory language. If you represent the group make your comments about the group and not the ‘cheeser’. Ask genuine questions like “Why?”, “How?” and “What?”. Don’t ever give away that you’re offended by the answers. This sets you on the defensive and ultimately, you’re trying to avoid any kind of situation like that. Explain the situation from your point of view after you’ve given the ‘cheeser’ to say his piece. If you’re representing the group make sure that you emphasize that you’re addressing the issue because you want the ‘cheeser’ to feel more a part of the group. Sometimes, ‘cheesers’ don’t have any idea they’re doing something irritating and assume that everyone else is doing the same thing they are. Ultimately, if you can skillfully confront someone, you should be able to at least make a point to the ‘cheeser’, giving him or you the option to make a decision based on the confrontation. Think positive. Aim for positive results and you just may be able to bring your ‘cheeser’ around.

Don’t Invite Him Back:
Once again social skills are important here. Social awareness and tact are very important for this tactic to work. You also should be the person who is at least helping coordinate events. If you’re not this won’t work. In store players also won’t be able to utilize this as most store managers aren’t interested in driving customers out of their stores from your complaints, so don’t waste your time. If you are in a position to control who comes and who doesn’t, this is a viable tactic. Before you make your guest list, make sure you’re aware of friendships your ‘cheeser’ may have in the group. If ‘cheesers’ friends ask him if he’s coming before the event, he may show up anyways or you may end up uninviting more players that you intended to. You’ll need to be the judge of this. Key clues are carpooling players, players who frequently play games with each other outside of events or people who just seem to be buddies. It’s generally a very bad idea to ask the ‘cheesers’ friends not to talk, or complain to them about the problem. You will only end up starting rumors which can potentially tear your gaming group apart. If the player is viewed as cheesy from everyone, and you’re 100% sure of this, (IE everyone has come to you and complained at least once about ‘cheeser’) then not inviting him back is a sure way to make everyone’s gaming experience more fun than not. Before you start intentionally excluding folks, I do recommend at least trying to confront the ‘cheeser’. This will give him a chance to redeem his ways before you take him off the guest list.

Team Up:
This tactic is extremely subversive and generally should be over looked in favor of other tactics except in the worst case scenarios. This tactic involves several players tailoring their lists to beat the ‘cheeser’ into melted cheese. Participants can range from one or two players, to a group of players, to the entire gaming group. You must be comfortable with the group that you play with and comfortable being confronted should the rouse be uncovered. You’ll have to be able to turn the confrontation of a most likely angry or frustrated ‘cheeser’ into a positive experience for the group without having someone’s models end up on the floor. You should only be doing this when you have some control over the group (you’re doing the inviting, or in charge in some way) and there are multiple players who are having trouble enjoying their games against the ‘cheeser’. I do not recommend this tactic unless you have a firm grip on who your players are and how people will react should your diabolical plan become uncovered. I’ve also read about cases where this was an eye opening experience for the ‘cheeser’ who became a big contributor to the group from then on.

I will add more tactics to this guide as I think of more, or they’re suggested by members.



Cheesy Player vs. Cheesy List:
We all know what a cheesy list is. We’ve all encountered them, staring back across the table at our humble lizards, as we breath a silent prayer to the dice gods to not foul us up too much. What is to say that a player across from you isn’t a ‘cheeser’ and is just using a cheesy list. Let’s talk about how to figure it out. We’ll start with the most obvious and work our way to the least obvious. As time goes on, I’ll do my best to add more observations in this regard as well.

You’ve Been Told:
This is probably the easiest and most obvious way to differentiate between a ‘cheeser’ and someone who is just running a cheesy list. The player comes up to you before the game and says something like, “Hey, I hope you don’t mind but I just spent almost $150 on four new Stegadon kits. I just finished painting the last one yesterday and want to try running them all with an Engine of the Gods! Is that ok?” My first reaction to this is an incredulous “No!” But lets pause right there, just for a second. This person just gave you a fair warning, assuming you knew what facing four Engines would be like, that he admits the list is imbalanced and or cheesy. Do real ‘cheesers’ give you a warning? Before pulling yelling foul play, take a look at the player’s history, if they have any. Do they typically run a different list? I’m more inclined to try a game that pits me against almost insurmountable odds, if I know my opponent just wants to see how the list works, if they’re curious about how an army reacts or if they’ve been on a loosing streak and need a ‘pick me up’ game. After all, who’s to say that the dice gods won’t look down upon your feeble attempts and grant you a few heroic rolls yourself, and if you win, it’s hard not to have bragging rights for trashing all four of those newly painted Stegadons!

Permission is Asked:
We now drop down into a grey area where it becomes harder to tell if you’re facing a ‘cheeser’ or a cheesy list. New players will frequently fall into this trap where the ‘cheeser’ asks, “Ok if I use this list?” Usually, “This” refers to a list that is imbalanced or just plain disgusting when used against a certain opponent or list and ends up making for a short game or brutally painful game which lasts ‘forever’. Players who’ve fallen prey to this trick are instantly suspicious if a similar question is posed to them at a later game day by the same person or someone else, especially if they’re unfamiliar with the “Steam Tanks Gone Wild List” (I’ve never heard of that, which makes me suspicious). Frequently, ‘cheesers’ will target players who appear inexperienced or new to the hobby in hopes of scoring an easy victory adding to the ‘W’ column, and will tend to tread carefully around someone who knows what the list they refer to is capable off. Obviously, this trick only works once and then the cat’s out of the bag. The way to tell, once again, is by the player’s history. If they have a habit of this type of behavior then obviously you’re dealing with a ‘cheeser’. A player who honestly wants to try out a cheesy list, will usually ask permission, but will most of the time admit during or after the game that his list isn’t a very ‘fair’ one. A ‘cheeser’ can usually be found on his way to the standings board to mark down another massacre.

Bluffing:
We go from grey to black here. Typically this tactic is only used when the simple permission trick has already been used or when you’re good friends are going to try and play a joke on you (don’t call cheese on that, by the way). After you’ve lost terribly to “Steam Tanks Gone Wild” the ‘cheeser’ will insist that this is not ‘that list’ and that he’s got a better list to play with. A ‘better list’ means that you’re taking whatever was in the previous list and multiplying it by 10 times in the direction of worse. Frequently, ‘cheesers’ will use these tactics or ones similar in nature to get your models down on the table. I’ve even read and heard of cases where they place certain models from their case down on the table as terrain is set up, only to swap those models for others once deployment starts. My first reaction is, “You’ve got to be kidding right?” Obviously, there’s nothing wrong with a closed list game, but if the contents don’t match the packing label, you’ve been fooled and that is hard for anyone to swallow.


Conclusion:
You’ll definitely want to make sure that you judge the motives of the person who takes a cheesy list before acting. I think that point has been made clear enough in this guide. I think that there is a huge difference between a cheesy player (‘cheeser’) and a player who uses a cheesy list. It is fun to use a cheesy list once in a while, and it has a way of curing those loosing streak blues (you know you’ve had them too) that does wonders for the soul. Most of the time, a player who uses a cheesy list is willing to admit that they did and some will even go so far as to apologize if they feel they mislead you. These are most definitely not ‘cheesers’ and despite your crushing defeat, you should continue to play with these folks. Others still are just competitive and want to bring a list that will win. They’re not bad players and do their best to make the game a pleasant and fun experience for not just themselves but for their opponents. Most of the time, you can learn something from them and generally have fun playing the game, win or lose. A great way to tell if you’re dealing with a ‘cheeser’, is by looking at yourself. Did your opponent do his best to make sure the game was fun, regardless of the list he used? If you can answer yes to this question, you should know that you’re not dealing with a ‘cheeser’. If the person didn’t seem to care about wether or not you had a good time and just ‘played for keeps’, then you may have a ‘cheeser’ on your hands. (DonkeyHotep) Either way, just make sure that you know ahead of time what it is that they’re going to put on the table next time, even if you have to joke a bit about being bitter.

 

Re: How to Handle Cheese

Placeholder post.

 

Re: How to Handle Cheese

Contributing Credits:
J.J.: Thanks again for ideas to improve the "On Table Tactics" Seciton
DonkeyHotep: Great post in regards to "Player vs. List", which opponent is more fun. Thanks

If your name belongs in this section, feel free to PM me. I will be doing my best to keep track of contributors, but want to make sure that acknowledgement for contributions is given. Don't let me forget you!


Change Log:
7/1/2009: Added "How to Spot a 'Cheeser'" Section
Formatting issues; color, fontsize, spacing

7/6/2009: Added "Off Table Tactics" Section

7/13/2009: Added "Cheesy vs. Cheesy List" Section (DonkeyHotep's contributions)
Formatting issues; Bold / Underlines
Edited "On Table Tactics" for J.J.'s contribution.
Added a "Contributing Credits" section above which will serve as a record to prove that I can't take full credit for this on my own.

 

Re: How to Handle Cheese

Hmm interesting thread, I will be keen to see this one develop. Good work so far.

 

Re: How to Handle Cheese

Wow.. Never knew being able to laugh while losing is useful at some point.. it makes me kinda happy
I surely gonna keep reading this thread!

 

Re: How to Handle Cheese

Nice observations Barotok! Looking forward to your next instalments on this

I am now realising that my 6th edition southlands all skink army probably qualified as a cheesy list

 

Re: How to Handle Cheese

Definitely great advice. I, too, will be looking forward to more.

I also know that it isn't easy to keep that smile on your face when fighting against a list that is incredibly one sided...but I think I read somewhere else on this forum, or perhaps it was just in the BRB introduction to the game...when facing insurmountable odds, find one thing about the match to be proud of. Look for a unit that's doing exceptionally well under the pressure and circumstances and keep rooting for it.

That goes along the lines of what you spoke of, throwing your opponent off and giving them a reaction they don't expect!

 

Re: How to Handle Cheese (Updated: July 1st, '09)

Thanks for the kind words guys. If anyone has any ideas or suggestions for the guide don't hesitate to let me know. I'd love to hear stories of how people have handled these situations. Also, this thread should be an open place to discuss, ask questions and compare experiences. I'd love to add ideas and suggestions to the guide from everyone who wants to offer.

 

Re: How to Handle Cheese (Updated: July 1st, '09)

This is a great, and look forward to reading more.

I haven't played much Warhammer yet, but I have years of experience in 40k, and I find the same things apply there as well. I have had more than my fair share of loses and played more than enough 'cheesers'. I have always found it useful to laugh it off, and look at the small victories as Quilum said. Just find one thing to be happy about in the game, even if it is considerably inconsequential to the game. "you may have destroyed me but at least I wounded your uber unit with my Rhino's storm bolter". Sorry for the 40k reference, but it helps prove my point. An other thing that I do, that might not be easy for everyone, is that I will concede the game. Let me explain. Once I have realized that I'm playing a 'cheeser' and there is no way to win, without divine intervention from the dice gods, I'll give the game to the player, but I won't quit playing. I accept that all that my opponent has mathematically created a list that will win every time and then I go on and have fun with the game. After all most of us love playing this game because it's fun and enjoyable, not because we have to win at everything all the time.

I know my wording is probably a little confusing and my grammar sucks, but I hope that helps more of you enjoy the game.

 

Re: How to Handle Cheese (Updated: July 1st, '09)

Well, as I stated in one of the other threads, I think it was someone commenting on a "cheese" Dark Elf list, back when I first started the game during the Storm of Chaos, I ended up playing against this one High Elf opponent who was considered a "cheeser" by the GW staff and other people.

Sadly, back then I didn't handle the matches the best, not the worst, but not the best either. I basically gave the guy the attitude he was likely looking for...that look of "holy heck I just got my butt handed to me."

The one game I can remember the best is when this guy fielded the Lothern Sea Guard list....the one that allowed the HE player to do a round of shooting per Lothern Sea Guard unit (a core choice unit ), Lothern Sea Rangers (special unit), and Repeater Bolt Throwers (are unit), per model in each unit, with no restrictions on range, no -hit modifiers, and no restrictions on what they target. The only restriction was that they couldn't target characters in units...This was after both armies have fully deployed, scouts included, but before the game starts. It was considered a "special round" of shooting. I pulled out the Storm of Chaos book to look the rules up.

Needless to say, that much shooting is bound to do some serious damage...and before the first turn happened, I had taken over 50% casualties to my army. I wasn't left with much to fight him. I think I just conceded the match to him on the second turn.

Now, like I said, I didn't yell, scream, or curse at the guy, I was just more subdued and obviously unhappy about the results of the match. The guy didn't do much in the way to even thank me for playing against him.

Looking back, I kind of wish I had the attitude I do now...though I still think I'd be hard pressed to find anything to be happy about in that particular scenario, but I'd have been able to better hide my unhappiness with the match and shake his hand, telling him "good game, thanks for playing."

 

Re: How to Handle Cheese (Updated: July 1st, '09)

I bet you would totally piss that guy off if he would hit 1/4th of his rolls in that 'round' and you keep lolling about his sad rolls even if you got wiped big time. Also sad that he didn't at least shake your hand and thank you for the game. But fear not! It is not only at this game that people act like that.. Try card games.

To set a nice mood i most of the time offer a drink to my opponent.. light a candle.. some barry whi.. uhhh..

 

Re: How to Handle Cheese (Updated: July 1st, '09)

Nah, I fully expect it here now...I've been exposed to "cheese" and jerks in the time I spent on World of Warcraft...I've made something of an art of finding enjoyment even in defeat. I'd go into details, but unless you played WoW 3 years ago, you wouldn't get it

 

Re: How to Handle Cheese (Updated: July 1st, '09)

If you think that it was bad 3 years ago for WoW, you wouldn't believe what it's like in end game now. After playing on several servers, I can confidently say the overall attitude aobut the game has taken a general downturn as far as intelligent players. If you want a full opinion there's a WoW thread that I posted on recently down the forums a bit.

Quillum, did anyone ever talk to the guy about his list? Did anyone have to play him later? Was it the last time you saw him after that? I think it's cheap that the guy didn't even shake your hand or thank you afterwards.

The group that I game with is very in tune with sportsmenship, and while competition is high, I've yet to see a match that doesn't end in a hand shake, even if someone gets upset (which happens once in a while). Not seeing that happen is a totally foreign concept to me.

 

Re: How to Handle Cheese (Updated: July 1st, '09)

I won't keep the discussion about WoW going, so with regards to your other question...its been a while, I don't recall if anything was said to the guy by the staff. Again, its been about 5 years, so memory is hazy, and I might be wrong on a few points. I think its safe to say that my opinion of the guy isn't/wasn't high so that may be influencing my memories.

In any case, I know that others did fight the guy, I just don't know how they fared against him. Many of the players were a lot better at playing than I was. I may be wrong (see my comment about my memory), but I think it wasn't long after that incident that I quit the game in favor of WoW.

I'm actually remembering as I go here...I do think the guy asked me if I would let him use that list...but I was very naive to what it could do. As far as sportsmanship...yeah, I do that now. The past couple of weeks the Bunker here near Chicago, IL has been hosting scenarios, and I've so far lost 2 and won two, all 4 times I've gone up to shake my opponents hand, thank them for the game, whether I lost or won.

 

Re: How to Handle Cheese (Updated: July 1st, '09)

I've had that question before Quillum.

"Is it ok if I use XXXXX list?"

The first few times, I thought the person was being nice. Now, after being in the hobby for a while, I realize that is code for "Is it ok if I use a cheesy list on you and win?"

The reason I asked you all those questions was to see if you remembered anything about what happened after that. From what I've learned, handling the cheese is best done after the game is over. If its a social situation where you don't have to play the person again (like a tournament, or you travel to play with a new group), I usually just decide that it's best for me to not play with that person again.

I'm sure everyone will agree it becomes a problem if you have to see or play against that person on a consistent basis.

 

Re: How to Handle Cheese (Updated: July 1st, '09)

Yeah, looking back on it now, I think that is -exactly- what that request was.

Also, now that I think of it, I do think it was a "tournament" style ladder that the game counted towards, but a lot from that time is merging together, so I don't know for sure if it was during or after the Storm of Chaos stuff.

I think I mentioned before that people didn't play against him if they didn't have to. Another thing that I remember about this person was that he would sometimes "randomly" blurt out children safe cusses like "God Bless America" ...I think it was more of a ploy to try to distract his opponent...kind of like with poker, make them think something he did was stupid so that they spend time trying to figure what it is out while missing their own strategy....or maybe that was just against me...I wasn't the greatest when it came to actual application of tactics.

Which brings to mind another person that I fought against back then. A very classy, very kind Empire player who offered advice and helped me with any questions that I had...even as he pretty much wiped the floor with me (Steam Tanks hurt like no one's business...) I didn't even care that I was losing because despite that, I had fun playing against him.

 

Re: How to Handle Cheese (Updated: July 1st, '09)

The empire player that you speak of sounded great until a little 's' at the end of one of your words; Steam Tanks. Steam tanks? We had an empire player take a steam tank in a 500 point warband for kicks one time. When it was my turn to play that game, i just marched up the board at it and made it easy for him to kill me so the game wouldn't run long. We all had a good laugh about it, but I didn't put any thought into the game because I had no tools to effectively deal with such a monstrosity (barring a dice god intervention).

You bring up another great point which I do believe that I'll cover in my guide. There's a huge difference between a cheesy list and a cheesy player. It can be ridiculously fun to pick up a couple of super cheesy lists and clash them together, provided that a previous agreement has been made about it. While cheesy lists are never fun to go against (unless you've got a good counter list), cheesy players make cheesy lists far worse. I'd even go as far to say that I'd play against a cheesy list just for fun if it was one of my good gaming buddies who wanted to see how the list ran or just wanted a good laugh.

 

Re: How to Handle Cheese (Updated: July 1st, '09)

Ah, you misunderstood what I meant when I said that. I was just using a comment about Steam Tanks in general. He only had one for that game.

 

Re: How to Handle Cheese (Updated: July 1st, '09)

Thank god for that eh!?

I've been working on more topics to add to the guide all weekend, despite my absense on the forums (US Independence day). A couple of things you can look forward to reading about are my thoughts on the following:

1) Off Table Tactics
2) Cheesy player vs. Cheesy lists
3) Gaming group differences
4) How can Lizardmen be cheesy?

Any other suggestions, comments or stories of success/failure and the results would be greatly appreciated. I'd like to see this become a community effort!

 

Re: How to Handle Cheese (Updated: July 1st, '09)

im excited!