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KoW Is a Ghekkotah Clutch Warden ever worth taking?

Discussion in 'Salamanders Discussion' started by BAE, May 31, 2016.

  1. BAE
    Razordon

    BAE Well-Known Member

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    In in the Army List section I have been asking for help in creating an army for the Clash of Kings 2016 event in October. I had originally thought to take a Clutch Warden to provide inspiring to my Ghekkotah units, reasoning that a Skylord would most likely be too far away for this type of support. However, @Itepixcauh responded with this analysis:

    Is it ever wise to take a Clutch Warden? Have any players found it to be worth the points if they have played with one? If so, what was the situation?

    It seems odd that a unit would be seemingly so overpriced as Mantic pride themselves on considerable play testing.
     
  2. Jack Trowell
    Cold One

    Jack Trowell Active Member

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    There is one big difference between the two : the Clutch Warden if inspiring to ghekkotah units, and this make a big difference.

    Sure, if you use him only as an assasin hero that you send alone like the master hunter ('or the twilight kin or ratkin assassins), it will be indeed overpriced compared to the others, but if you use him as an upgraded army standard that can somewhat fight it is fairly decent.

    In other words, if you happens to have several Gekkho units that you plan to use together, he is a very nice inspiring source for them and will be able to support them.

    Can he be used as a pseudo assassin ? Yes he can, even if he his not the best one, he should still get the advatange over non fighting heroes like army standard or most wizards, and of course against war engines too. But it's not supposed to be its main/first role, it's something that he might do later in game depending on the situation, his main job will be to inspire and support other units, not go alone.
     
    Itepixcauh and Bowser like this.
  3. Itepixcauh
    Ripperdactil

    Itepixcauh Well-Known Member

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    I actually don't agree with that, well I agree on his role as a hero but he is very overpriced, he is basicly paying a huge tax on his movement, take the Dwarven Ranger Captain in consideration so we can rule out the Inspiring.

    Once again for 5 more points he has:

    - 2 less movement
    - +1 to hit in combat
    - +1 defense
    - +1 Nerve
    - Vanguard
    - Better Weapon (Bow)
    - CS 1
    - Headstrong vs Vicious (I will rule those two out)

    So those 2 points in movement come at a very high price, I really think he wasn't playtested correctly. Apparently we got nerfed badly in the end, but still the rest of the units seem more or less balanced but the poor Clutch Warden is just not worth taking, at least for me. I think he should have (as the Skylord) +1 to hit at least in shooting and stealthy as standard and maybe +1 more nerve to be really balanced.
     
  4. Jack Trowell
    Cold One

    Jack Trowell Active Member

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    We have to remember that the RC priced the units not simply because of a simple mathematical formula, but be evaluating their effective potential for their role.
    This doesn't means that there cannot be some specific units or heroes that might be slightly under or over costed, but here I think

    While the ranger captain is indeed a better hero to compare the clutch warden with, you will note that he inspire only one very specific kind of unit, while the clutch warden can inspire many different ones, you might in theory even play a full viable ghekko army if you wanted, while a full ranger army for the dwarves would be rather limited.

    Also, the two points of movement, on this kind of unit, are very important. With this movement as an individual, you can move outside the front arc of an ennemy unit trying to catch you, and maybe even still be able to shot at it.

    It also make the clutch warden much more likely to be able to separate from his units to hunt a target of opportunity like a war engine or isolated army standard or caster.

    Yopu will note that speed 7 means a charge range of 14", meaning that a war engine or wizard cannot come in breath attack/fireball range without also being in charge range from the warden, something the ranger captain is not able to do.

    Sure, in pure combat ability I will grant you, a dwarf ranger hero is tougher and more powerful than a ghekko hero, seems normal, but the ghekko is much more mobile, is very likely to get the initiative if needed on almost any non cavalry or flying unit, and is much more useful as an inspiring source if you plan to use him with other ghekkos, where the rangers are usually at their best isolated so a captain will often only have one unit to inspire at best (and most often he will only be able to inspire himself)

    If you want to compare, take for exemple a ratkin swarm-crier (army standard), the warden cost 40 more points, but in exchange he get :
    - +1 speed
    - 3 attacks instead of 1, with Me 4+ instead of 5+ and vicious
    - 3 ranged attacks on Ra 4+ with vicious with 12" range
    - better nerve (at best the same with full rallying in range for the ratkin)
    - pathfinder
    ... but your inspiring will only work on certain units.

    In short, if you have a groupe of Ghekko units to inspire, then you get a hero that is both an inspiring source and a semi assassin. He is not as good as the dedicated assassins, but he has a much better inspiring potential than the dwarf ranger captain, and with more speed that the ranger he is also much more survivable and will project a much larger melee threath range. You might wonder why the sudden importance of melee when you have already a decent ranged attack, and the answer is of course the potential for charging a unit to disorder it, even if it must cost your hero.
    For 85 points, you clutch warden might be sacrified to disorder a horde of shooters or maybe a war engine, and if damaged but alive he will have the speed and maneuvrability to have a better chance to keep out of danger than a ranger captain would.

    Also you made me realize that like the ranger captain he has a big advantage over the dedidacted assassin in that he can inspire himself. This is not much, but combined with his speed (the main flaw of the ranger captain, partially but not totally compensated by vanguard) it can make for a decent light war engine hunter.

    Let's note also that we are rather lacking in light and fast fighting heroes, a herald on kaisenor is close in cost but with only 1 melee attack will have much less chance to kill or even disorder anything, and a captain on foot is slower, while on rhinosaur it is much more expensive.

    In other words, if you are facing things like hordes of shooters a mixed force of hunters, sky raiders and clutch warden might be a very good option, with the warden providing inspiring while they advance, and after that if they separate his very small footprint might allow him to go where the other would not fit. In addition, if your opponent shooting is able to kill one such unit per turn while they advance, it's much better that they kill a 85 point hero than a 100 point hunter unit or a sky raider one. Sending a groupd of 2 or 3 wardens as a forward sacrifice to disorder hordes of shooters is also possible, and they are the cheapest effective option in the salamander list.

    That said maybe the warden is indeed slightly overcosted, byt even if it's the case, , it's probably not by more than 5 or 10 points in the very worst case.
     
    Itepixcauh likes this.
  5. Itepixcauh
    Ripperdactil

    Itepixcauh Well-Known Member

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    That point of view is actually quite interesting, I still feel like there are better options (for me at least) but I'm willing to give him a try in a list designed around him. That sounds intriguing.

    Thanks for the highlight!
     
  6. Miyuso
    Skink

    Miyuso New Member

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    Hmm, here's a question. If you took a Clutch Warden, and gave him the cloak, that he would be -2 to hit with shooting? Add Jar of the 4 winds, and he'd make an interesting sniper (24" range, harder to hit).
     
  7. Jack Trowell
    Cold One

    Jack Trowell Active Member

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    Well, you can only take one artefact per unit, so not both at the same time, but yes it's possible. It would make him maybe too expensive however for certain roles, one of his strong point currently is that he is cheap enough that he can be sacrified if needed without too much remorse, so rather than try to compete with better heroes, I would rather siply use the points to take a second clutch warden if I have the slots.
     

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