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8th Ed. Let's talk Kroxigors

Discussion in 'Lizardmen & Saurian Ancients Tactics' started by Stormfrog, Feb 13, 2013.

  1. Stormfrog
    Saurus

    Stormfrog New Member

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    So,

    Lately i'v started to take a good look at one of the sub-par units in our book, kroxigors to be precise. I'v also noticed that with several recent discussions concerning cold one cavalry, many others are starting to try and make our less popular choices usefull. So I was thinking, why not try to make the big, stupid bastards pull their weight as well? So here follows my musings on the subject of Kroxigors. It’s quite a long post, so do try and grit your teeth, and by the end of it, do feel free to criticize at will :D

    Now, Kroxigors are undeniably usefull and rather popular as part of a skrox unit, but how do these guys work on their own?

    Lone kroxigors suffer from three major weaknesses. The first one is being relativly fragile. With toughness 4 and a 4+ armor save, they are as easy to hurt as saurus. Even more so, when taken into account that saurus often have a parry save. The second weakness is cost, and at the cost of five saurus, this is hard to argue with at a certain point. The third weakness is their low initiative, ASL and low weapon skill. This coupled together with their relativly low defences, means that if something hits them hard, they are likely to loose alot of their attacks back, before they can bring their might to bear. This in turn coupled together with a WS of 3, means quite a low frequency of returning wounds.

    Having covered the Kroxigors weakness, its time to look at what they bring to the table. As I see it, they have three strengths when acting as a stand alone unit. The first is speed. At a movement of 6, they can outmanuver most other units, making them usefull flankers for your slower saurus blocks. The second positive side of them is that they provide strength 6 attacks, something that is relativly scarce in the Lizardmen army compared to other armies. There are only three other sources for such attacks, and none are avalible in large numbers, being ancient stegadons, carnosaurs and saurus characters. This allows kroxigors to act a can-opener for the army, efficently dealing with high armor units such as cavalry. The final strength of the kroxigors, that they do not posess as part of a skrox unit, is manuverability. As lone units of kroxigors, they often have a far smaller footprint than normal infantry blocks, allowing them to, in conjunction with their speed, further outmanuver the enemy.

    Now, there is no disputing that the kroxigors weakness as a stand alone unit are quite substantial, and I don't think they can be made to work very effektivly in all-comer situations under the current book. UNLESS, you add magic. I know magic is a rather unstable thing to build a battle-plan on, but as Lizardmen players, we have access to one of the most powerfull magic phases in the game.

    There are currently two lores that are agreed upon are the most powerfull for most Lizardmen players, namely Light and Life. When it comes to using kroxigors as a stand alone unit, it might be tempting to choose life, so as to counter their fragility. Life works well keeping the kroxigors alive long enough to wreak havoc, but it has one major drawback. The buffs are only unit specific. As such, if you buff your kroxigors to kingdom-come, the rest of your army are sitting ducks. As such, when it comes to using kroxigors, i'd choose light over life. It provides the essential buffs to counter their low weaponskill, initative and ASL, while at the same time providing the same benefits for the rest of your army. I belive that to make kroxigors effective, you cannot sacrifice the rest of your army to do so, but rather use kroxigors as an extra utility tool that can be added to, rather than replace, the rest of your army. Hence light over life. Another benefit of spreading the buffs across your army is that it prevents the enemy from focusing his magical support on whatever is facing your kroxigors. By doing so, he could be seriously ignoring a unit that is about to face, say, your temple guard or a combined charge from a saurus unit and a stegadon.

    When it comes to unit sizes, I find that this is very much a personal choice. It depends so much on the local meta, coupled together with personal method of gameplay to make any kind of standard rule of thumb. My personal choice however is a unit of 6 of the bastards. This gives them the wounds to sustain some damage, but keeps the unit small enough so that maneuverability is maintained, and cost palatable. If they get lucky and get into combat scot-free, then hopefully they get a rank thrown in as well.

    So, armed as we are with lore of light, lets see what roles the kroxigors can fill in the Lizardmen army. My absolute favorite usage for kroxigors is by far to hunt cavalry. Now, Kroxigors are fast, but cavalry is normally faster, and coupled together with swiftstride, it can be tricky for them to get a charge in. Getting charged by cavalry is normally bad news for a kroxigor unit, since very few such units pack anything below strength 5 on the charge. My method for dealing with this is to use Bironas timewarp to double their movement, giving them an impressive range for a charge. True, this gives the enemy time to react to the spell and move said cavalry out of harm’s way, but if you are clever when it comes to positioning your units, you can either force your opponent to hold his ground, attempt a reckless charge (which will hopefully fail) against your kroxigors, or else move the cavalry back in such a position as to unalign them with the rest of his army, giving you the initiative to dictate the terms of the battle.

    If you feel you have to take the charge from enemy cavalry, another opportunity presents itself, although it requires more magic on your part. Open yourself up for a charge by enemy cavalry, but make sure to cast Speed of Light first. A lot of cavalry is only WS 4, and suffer from the so-called “rubber lance syndrome”. Their strength is impressive, but as most only have one attack, they can rarely afford to miss. When they are suddenly hitting on 4’s or 5’s, you will find that their killing power is drastically reduced. And once the kroxigors start hitting back on 3’s, they are in real trouble. Throw in Bironas Timewarp, and you are truly laughing.

    These spells might deter a player from charging you, but remember that by marching straight up to him and literally asking for it, by not accepting such a challenge, he is again letting you dictate the terms of the battle, and surrenders the initiative. Every second you are making him respond to your moves instead of the other way around is a step closer to victory.

    Of course, chances are large that no cavalry will be present in the opposing army, in which case there should still be plenty for your kroxigors to do. Anything with high armor, and/or high toughness is a prime target for your kroxigors. Just make sure to minimize incoming damage by either increasing their weapon skill, or making sure they get to strike first. Pha’s protection is also useful for mitigating any incoming damage. Also, it is well worth noting that when it comes to ranked up infantry, I strongly suggest you make your kroxigors engage from a flank, and in conjunction with another unit like saurus or temple guard. Kroxigors excel at taking out high toughness, high AS targets with relatively few wounds. Their high strength attacks are mostly wasted against the majority of infantry, and the lack of ranks means steadfast will be an issue. Kroxigors are not meant for drawn out grinding battles like saurus and temple guard, but rather to utterly crush a small, but valuable enemy unit by using magical support.

    Well, I’v got a ton more I could write on the subject of kroxigors, as they are one of my favorite units in the army, but I’d rather like to get something else done before midsummer. So with that I invite you all to comment on my ramblings, and perhaps come with a few tips and tricks you yourself use to make your Kroxigors work.

    And remember, this thread is for people who want to make them work, not for comments on how sub-par they are. We have plenty of those elsewhere.
     
  2. Arli
    Skink Priest

    Arli Moderator Staff Member

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    You make some great points. I find that their cost precludes me from taking them. It is just more effective for them to be in a unit of skinks for me. That way, that huge amount of points counts toward the core cost.

    I have only ran them solo (without skinks), 1 time maybe.
     
  3. n810
    Slann

    n810 First Spawning

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    You forgot to mention that they cause fear, can move freely through water, and have stomp attacks.
     
  4. Old Mossy
    Bastiladon

    Old Mossy Member

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    I'd like to hear people's tactics, particularly any cheeky ways to use stomp.

    I'm not sure if this is what you meant n810, but since I made the following mistake, I'll mention it anyway. Aquatic gives River/Swamp/wateretc Strider. In 8th edition, all this means is that they do not treat it as dangerous terrain. It does not mean they get to march through rivers etc. All other rules for water terrain still apply.
     
  5. Scalenex
    Skink Priest

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    Excellent Starter thread, allow me to explore a few specific situations.

    Monster Killing: I think Kroxigors have a niche as a monster killer, particularly monsters that Skink shooting can’t handle (those that fly or have armor). I brought three in my last tournament and they were able to chop down a Terrorgheist quite quickly (I really loathe Terrorgheists). The hard part is getting your Kroxigor a straight shot at the Giant, Steam Tank, Terrorgheist or equivalent. If the big enemy monster is on the flank of the army the Kroxigors can use their speed and maybe Swamp Strider to get the charge.

    If the enemy monster is in the center and you try to send your Kroxigor at it, your opponent will figure out what you are doing and intercept your Kroxigor with a big block of spearmen.

    I plan to include Kroxigor in most of my army lists and experiment with them to try to find out how to use them best.

    I have the following Theoryhammer that I plan to test this year including a little bit that I have tested.


    3 Kroxigor use it to field a potent fast flanking unit. Similar to a small unit Cold One Cavalry, a Stegadon, or smallish Krox Block. This is the only unit I have extensive experience with. The key is to make sure you can combine melees with your Kroxigor and Saurus block for maximum synergy. If they end up fighting by themselves they better be fighting something puny or they will die before they get off many attacks. The worst thing you can do is space your main infantry such that your Kroxigor can’t fit in your battle line (this technically applies to all sizes but the 2x2 block is more maneuverable and the bigger blocks can theoretical stand on their own.)

    A Kroxigor block this small is vulnerable to shooting, but less vulnerable to heavy artillery than say a Stegadon and less vulnerable to bolt throwers than Cold One Cavalry.


    4 Kroxigor: Field as a 2x2 square for lots of attacks in a small frontage. You lose the rank but you probably shouldn’t count on ranks with Kroxigor anyway.


    5 Kroxigor: I see little reason to run Kroxigor units in this size


    6 Kroxigor: Two full ranks for Monstrous Infantry, lots of attacks. Still a relatively narrow frontage giving you maneuverability.


    7 Kroxigor: All the benefits of a six model Kroxigor block, but you can now afford to lose one due to shooting or your enemies striking first and still have full attacks.


    8-9 Kroxigor: Same as above, but you can take lots of casualties now. Perhaps this level of assurance is prohibitively expensive.


    10-17 Kroxigor: I see little reason to field Kroxigor in units this size.


    18+ Kroxigor: Horde baby! This seems as much novelty as anything but I have 19 Kroxigor and when I get around to fielding this once more of my ridiculous collection is assembled. I plan to field this with a Life Slann, in this case the one unit issue isn’t a limitation because most of your army is tied up in this one unit. The problem is this will eat up almost all of your Special allowance in most games.


    Lore of Shadow: I like Light, but I believe Shadow is the best lore to help Kroxigor, especially if you make combo charges between Saurus and Kroxigor since the one unit at a time limitation will hurt your less. The key to Kroxigor is making sure most of them are alive when it’s their turn to strike. Enfeebling Foe and Melekoth’s Mystifying Miasma will both make it hard for your opponents to kill many Kroxigor. Also those two spells are rarely dispelled since people tend to be more concerned with Pit of Shades and Mindrazor.


    My Blood in the Badlands Siege Experiment: I played my first Siege game not long ago. I fielded three units of three Kroxigor with Battering Clubs to try to breach the enemy fortress. I figured since we don’t have artillery this was the best option. Also I figured that since Stegadons, Cold One Cavalry, Chameleon Skinks, Salamanders, Razordons, and Terradons are all subpar choices for a scenario based entirely around building assaults, Kroxigor would have a chance to shine. I was wrong.

    A battering ram and a block of Saurus can assault a fortress section simultaneously providing you 20 Saurus attacks and a give you a chance to breach the section. A Battering Kroxigor unit and Saurus Warrior block can assault a fortress section and give you a chance to make a breach with only 10 Saurus attacks.

    If you try to breach a section without trying to assault it, it will take you two rounds to assault a breached section and that’s IF you rolled well on your breach attempt. Also, with the volume of attacks against them a small unit of Battering Club wielding Kroxigor will probably not survive a second breaching attempt.

    A conventional assault by Kroxigor is not very useful either since you can only two Kroxigor fighting at a time.

    Conclusion: I generally like to go for variety but in a Siege Assault as the attackers you want to spend most of your points on magical support, Saurus Warriors, and Temple Guard


    Just hypothetically, do we have any Ogre players out there with any useful insight on fielding Monstrous Infantry in a game focused on conventional infantry?
     
  6. Jabroniville
    Skink

    Jabroniville New Member

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    Really nice, interesting stuff so far! Thanks!

    I've had the occasional success with my Kroxigor- I LOVE the unit, though found it tactically sub-par in many scenarios, and quite expensive. There's a handful of armies where they aren't too useful as well (high-strength, low-toughness infantry-heavy armies, for example).

    The key issue for me was that they couldn't really beat a unit of sufficient size- especially now, the sheer amount of attacks they face means that they'll never win in Combat Resolution. So yeah, mixed battles are better. I actually had a LOT of luck in the last edition using Stegadons & Kroxigor simultaneously- the combined strength of BOTH hammer units would often devastate whatever they hit, and their equal Movement made their tandom charges much easier.

    But Krox/Saurus would work well also, though I've yet to pull that off. In my last battle, I had them behind a unit of Salamanders, and positioned the Sallies so they were diagonal, allowing the Kroxigor a flank charge on the Crypt Horrors (who'd charged the Salamanders). They did rather well, especially considering I used Lore Of Light and started boosting their attacks.

    So I agree than Kroxigor work best with Lore of Light- I had the Horrors hitting at -1 (which is a MAJOR bonus, really), and even got the ASF/Extra Attacks one in the second round. Of course, I had cleaned up most surrounding units, so I could focus my Magic on buffing the Kroxigor. In other situations, I could imagine saving that for a more important, costly unit.

    I actually like Kroxigor more than the Skink/Kroxigor units- I still can't quite figure out how to master those- every other Army Forum out there talks about how easy it is to just focus attacks on the terrible Skinks and earn tons of CR from them.
     
  7. forlustria
    Kroxigor

    forlustria Member

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    im taking a unit of 9 to a tournement this sunday. will let you know what happens
     
  8. Stormfrog
    Saurus

    Stormfrog New Member

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    A very good point to add Lore of shadow to the list of helpfull lores. By hexing the enemy instead of buffing your troops, you are not focusing your magic quite as much as life does, as anything fighting that unit will reap the benefits. Other than that, you seem to have a hang on how to use kroxigors, and in smaller units specifically, something i'v yet to really try.

    Kroxigors do indeed make quite good monster killers, as few monsters have very high weapon skill, or attacks to whittle down the kroxigors before they get to strike. And and as you pointed out, a monster with high armor save is truly a prime target. Some might argue that by having skinks we hardly need more monster hunters, but it might be worth pointing out that a clever opponent will simply avoid your skinks, as their range is not to impressive. But by adding such a monster hunting unit, you are making it harder for him to avoid them all without making the monster in question redundant.
     
  9. Qupakoco
    Skink Chief

    Qupakoco Keeper of the Dice Staff Member

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    Good thread! I like my Krox, but they have issues. T4 is my biggest gripe.

    Combat rez is nice, but if the Skrox unit is Streadfast then it doesn't really matter. Try it! Take a unit of 22 skinks with 2 Krox up against a unit of 4 Krox. Same price. See who wins! Make it fair and start them off in base contact. My money is on the Skrox unit every time. (Spoiler, the second one Kroxigor dies they start to lose)

    As mentioned, both Krox and Skrox excel at taking on elite units or monsters that are low in numbers. Skrox can usually take them head on, but Krox need all the help they can get with either a supporting unit or a flank charge, or both.

    Neither unit should be used to fight anything that is horded or has a significant amount of ranks.
     
  10. Jabroniville
    Skink

    Jabroniville New Member

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    Okay, that's helpful info- thanks. My only issue then is that the game is FULL of large units of Infantry now, making it likely that Skroxigor will come up against the very thing they want to avoid.

    I also have much better luck with them against Vampires if they're a 6-Kroxigor unit. One time I tried the Skroxigor thing and got stuck against Crypt Horrors for several turns- I held them there, but eventually my whole unit died when Steadfast failed them. In a more recent game, 6 Kroxigor beat the snot out of the same Crypt Horrors because they're smaller and more mobile, thus allowing them a flank charge.

    The only other time I tried Skroxigor, it was against High Elves and one of their infantry units just wiped them out. Granted, that's a bad match-up (Strength 6 and crappy WS doesn't do much against Elves). I'd be much more likely to use Skroxigor against Dwarves or Knights or something. Anything prone to grinding seems dangerous (like VCs).
     
  11. Scalenex
    Skink Priest

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    As an ancilliary topic. Anyone use Kroxigor champions? As a rule I tend to give all my units champions at every opportunity even when some would call it wasteful, but I rarely take Kroxigor champions because I end up wanting to trim 20 points from my lists.


    Cons
    -20 points is expensive. For about a third a Kroxigor you get one more attack and no extra wounds.

    -A unit champion can cause a Kroxigor champion to waste attacks. I see this as a relatively small problem since Kroxigors tend to miss have the time and you should avoid fighting traditional enemy blocks head on unless the unit is very big.


    Pros
    -A Kroxigor is hard to target well by allocating extra attacks, at least compared to regular unit champions since they have three wounds rather than the usual one. If your enemy tries you may have a situation where there are say two wounds on your champion and two on a rank and file. Without the Champion you would have lost a whole model. Given this your enemies will probably NOT single out your Kroxigor Champion. That means your unit champion will be the last to go so you will get your expensive extra attack pretty much every round the unit is alive.

    -A Kroxigor has a better chance of winning an underdog challenge then almost every other unit champion in Warhammer. The odds are still slim, but slim is better than neglible which is what your odds of a Saurus champion beating most kitted out heroes it’s far better than a Saurus Champion and magnitudes better than a Skink champion.

    -The idea of a giant champion is just cool and many get the itch to make Kroxigor conversions.
     
  12. forlustria
    Kroxigor

    forlustria Member

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    ok just got back from using 9 krox. and while i lost 2 games and wom 1 game i can honestly say il be taking these babys again. They only died in one game and that was my fault for letting them get flanked.

    these guys took out chaos ogres, a stonehorn,scraplauncher,leadbelchers,tomb chariots, tmb scorpion ,casket of souls and nearly another casket just needed 1 more wound on that. coupled up with a unit of skirmisher skinks for redirecting these are great
     
  13. GCPD
    Bastiladon

    GCPD Active Member

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    A very insightful analysis from the OP. I would tend to agree, but wouldn't be so optimistic.

    The problem with solo Kroxigor units is that everything they can do, a Skroxigor unit can do better. Solo Kroxigor have a very limited range of targets: notably, something that is str3 (so they don't kill the Kroxigor before they attack) but has T4 or better or a 4+ armour save or better (to make the most of the Strength 6). There's very little that would fall into this category, except cavalry or chariots if you charge them first, as you identified.

    The problem with that is that any cavalry or chariots that get charged first are likely to have a bad time; ranked infantry will likely beat them through static CR anyway. And there are some units of this type - White Lion Chariots, Chaos Knights - who will give back as good as they get whether they charge or not. But anything else - particularly monsters and monstrous infantry/cavalry - are just going to ruin the Krox before they attack. Its perhaps a damning indictment of the state of the game that T4 4+ armour save just isn't good enough for protection unless you can bring a lot of it, and at 55 points Kroxigor really can't.

    Really, the best thing that you can do its take two or three and surround them with Skinks. 24 Skinks and 3 Kroxigor will outperform 6 solo Kroxigor in every regard and for less; being able to inflict more damage over a longer period than the solo unit can survive. This unit will also have a wider array of targets that it can engage and can happily take charges. It also fills out core requirement.
     

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