1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. The April Poetry Contest has opened for voting! For more information, click here.
    Dismiss Notice

Tutorial Revised Salamander Tactica

Discussion in 'Lizardmen & Saurian Ancients Tactics' started by Scalenex, Aug 18, 2013.

  1. Scalenex
    Skink Priest

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

    Messages:
    3,645
    Likes Received:
    1,771
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Broad Overview on Salamanders

    What factors do you weigh when deciding how many to take and how to group them?

    Depends how many points you can spare with your army. If likely opponents are deemed to be especially vulnerable or especially resistant to salamander fire I am likely to adjust the total up or down. I think Salamanders two single Salamanders beat one pair most of the time for their ability to come at different driections giving you adaptability to split or concentrate fire as needed. There is no maximum size on Salamanders anymore but I can’t think of any situation where you’d want more than three in a pack unless a special scenario is just chalked full of buildings like Raze and Ruin.


    When do you take an extra handler? How big should my teams be?

    If I field Salamanders singly I want to take a spare handler for sure. The more Salamanders you have in one unit the less likely an extra snack is going to be because they share handlers so I wouldn't take a spare unless I had extra points lying around.

    What range do you want do you want to be at when shooting your flame for maximum average effectiveness?

    I don’t want to bog down the game measuring things. I lay the flame template out from the Sallies mouth and if it barely nicks the closer edge of the target, I deem that a good range for most block troops. Now that we can’t march and shoot we can’t be as choosy as we used to be with target selection.

    these things make targets more attractive to burn
    -The target unit has low toughness (anything T4 or less will burn okay nowadays)
    -The target is made up of several models with small bases
    -The target has a relatively low chance of passing a panic test
    -The target has a weak armor save
    -The target has a Regeneration Save
    -The target is poorly positioned to retaliate

    These things make targets less attractive to burn
    -The target has strong armor saves. This is a new problem for us!
    -The target is made up of a small number of models with very large bases.
    -The target has a relatively low chance of failing a panic test (or are immune to panic)
    -the target has a high ward save (or has a fire specific ward save)
    -Shooting at the target unit will put your Sallies in direct harm's way from the target’s unit or a unit friendly to the target.
    -The target unit's models are all multiple wounds so they are unlikely to have whole models removed


    When is getting Sallies into close combat a good idea?
    1) When you are out of things to shoot at
    2) When there’s a close combat going on so vital, that your whole match is lost if you lose it. Ergo you need all the help you can get
    3) When the salamander can charge a war machine
    4) When you need a sacrificial unit to stall or redirect a nasty unit.
    5) When you have no choice
    6) When you want to play herd with a unit that's already fleeing


    What LM units work well with Sallies, which units don't?


    I think Salamanders do well if the bulk of your army is slow moving. Saurus and Bastiladons versus Skroxigor and Cold One Cavalry. If you build your army around a Fast Attack strategy your Salamanders probably will only get one good shot off first before the two lines converge. To keep Salamanders from being overran by Fast Cavalry and flyers, I’d recommend screening your Salamanders with Razordons or Javelin wielding Skirmishers. Razordons and Salamanders seem to be a good partnership. Make sure anything threatening your Salamanders faces a lot of missile fire. Ripperdactyls can also clear a path for your Salamanders. You can still take Salamanders in a Fast Attack army, just don’t go overboard with them. Tetto’eko can help a lot. Salamanders are one of the best units we have to Vanguard.


    Where and when do you employ Sallies on your battle line.


    Where: Usually on the flanks. You can get a better line up shooting at the flank of a unit than the front and be less likely to be charged. Usually whenI put a Salamander near my center I’ve regretted it. I haven’t been able to get good shot lined up and then get charged. It worked once in a team game when I was able to buff them with Life spells and stall a big block ogres allowing the rest of my team’s troops to take his army on piecemeal. I haven’t figured out a solution for when opponents who put their cavalry on the flanks though.


    When: Usually as close to last as possible. You want to try to find a spot in the enemy battle line that your salamanders can safely slide into and get advantageous shots. If you put down your salamanders early they can make sure that the units closest to your Salamanders are both 1) not especially vulnerable to salamander fire and (2) capable of easily schooling the Salamander in close combat. It’s more important than ever to place them strategically since they can’t march and shoot anymore.


    How do use magic to get the most out of your Sallies?


    High Magic: Walk Between Worlds compensates for our lack of March and Shoot. The rest of the lore is mostly for the rest of the army.

    Jack of All Trades: Taking all eight signature spells? You can easily clear the field of chaff units that can threaten your Salamanders letting them roam freely to burn things as they please.

    Fire: I don’t see any synergy between Lore of Fire and Salamanders because Kindleflame only applies to magical fire. A Fire Slann with lots of Salamanders, your strategy is probably to kill as much as possible before they get into close combat. Just the novelty of having a pyro strategy has some twisted appeal.

    Beasts: Salamanders technically benefit from Wildheart (since they are warbeasts), but Wyssan’s Wildform is the only augment that can target a Salamander team and that spell is probably more useful on infantry blocks.

    Metal: Now that Salamanders have lost the massive armor piercing bonus, a Metal Slann with a lot of Salamanders will give you full coverage. Use the Salamanders for the poorly armored targets and use magic for the tin cans.

    Light: The two magic missles can be good for shooting at things the Salamanders can’t get to and Light of Battle might help a Sally in close combat purely to tie up another unit, but as awesome as Light is in general, I see it as being for the rest of the army.

    Life: If the Sallies are sallying forth ahead of your army and they get in close combat before you want them too, the buffs might buy them some time. Use the lore attribute to heal Sallies if needed, but I see Life as mainly for the non-Sallies in your army.

    Heavens: With the tendency of a Salamander to hit many models at once, Harmonic Convergence could potentially be quite useful for Salamanders. I don’t see much Heavens can do to help Sallies in particular.

    Shadows: Withering. Low toughness units are the preferred things for Sallies to shoot at and Withering accomplishes this. The rest of the lore is mostly for the non-Sallies in the army.

    Death: Doom and Darkness makes enemies much more likely to panic due to Salamander inflicted casualties. Soulblight is almost as good as Withering for softening up a target pre-basting. Purple Sun is slightly more likely to hit your Salamanders by mistake than the rest of your army because Salamanders tend to scurry ahead of the main force, but Purple Sun is risky however you slice it.

    Undeath: You might be able to summon a unit to back up a hunting pack but there is very little the lore can do for Salamanders. Undeath lacks spells to damage things and Salamanders can pick up the slack there.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2015
    NIGHTBRINGER likes this.
  2. Kcibrihp-Esurc
    Razordon

    Kcibrihp-Esurc Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    339
    Likes Received:
    304
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Thanks for the Tactica! I'm Ghosting at a Competition soon and I'm Devouring every tactical fact I can Salamanders are a special (sort of) case because lots of things can get them quickly but you make good points so I'll probably take my two, the Big Problem is I sort of have a hard time trusting templates after one salamander incinerated my other one when I was aiming for the Bret Knights :depressed: so I'm TRYING to knit my army together as well as possible. What do you think of Razordon vs. Salamander? I in 7th ed. was like "PICK SALAMANDER IT'S 10,000 TIMES BETTER!!" but now it's like "Hmm 50 50 'cause a Sallie can get more guys but a Razzie won't accidentily MURDER MY OTHER ONE and while Regen and Buildings are less fun no Heroes or Lords can be all 'Haha F#^% you I have the Dragonhelm/Dragonbane Gem :D "
     
  3. Scalenex
    Skink Priest

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

    Messages:
    3,645
    Likes Received:
    1,771
    Trophy Points:
    113
    In 8th edition, I believe it's "Pick Salamander it's SLIGHTLY better." My personal opinion is, if you take just one or two in an all comers game, take Salamanders. If you are taking four or more warbeasts, it's probably better to take two Salamanders and two Razordons instead of four Salamanders. Though I've both seen and read about people fielding large units (4-6) of Razordons. With High magic you can make them super deadly with Hand of Glory.

    They do two different things. Salamanders are good for roasting infantry, especially large infantry blocks, especially large infantry blocks with poor leadership scores. To a lesser extant Monstrous Infantry. In 8th edition they should not bother with shooting at knights or Monsters unless they have no other targets. Razordons are mostly an anti-chaff unit in my opinion. They can interdict themselves between your Salamanders or Skink Priest bunkers to prevent the enemy Fast Cavalry or hounds away. I don't think they don't do enough raw damage to seriously hurt non-chaff units. That's why I think Salamanders and Razordons are a good team. Razordons kill the small volume units, Salamanders kill the large volume units.
     
  4. Scalenex
    Skink Priest

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

    Messages:
    3,645
    Likes Received:
    1,771
    Trophy Points:
    113
    It was just pointed out to me that Salamanders are Monstrous Beasts in the current book. In the old book they were Warbeasts. The one thing that changes is that now Salamanders get a Stomp and cannot be Stomped or Thunderstomped.
     
  5. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

    Messages:
    11,132
    Likes Received:
    21,593
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Plus they are immune to killing blow and benefit from the monstrous support rule.
     
  6. airjamy
    Razordon

    airjamy Active Member

    Messages:
    392
    Likes Received:
    114
    Trophy Points:
    43
    I do not really see how they benefit from the monstrous support rule as you would always put them in front, i know of no way to bring sallies in the second rank? Really well written tactica, well rounded out as well. Nothing to really dissagree on, and i also very much agree that sallies are now only slightly better then razordons, especially due to point cost. I am just so afraid to missfire the entire game with razordons, i already do that with sallies, so i tend to stick with the lower chance of missfire, the salamanders.
     
  7. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

    Messages:
    11,132
    Likes Received:
    21,593
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I was just pointing out that the rule now pertains to them as well. You're right that the rule will rarely ever benefit them because Salamanders are usually taken in small unit sizes (1-3) with all the salamanders up front in the first rank. However, in the case of a large unit of Razordons, you might very well end up in a situation were they form up in close combat into 2 ranks (though without a rank bonus due to skirmish). In this event, monstrous support would play a role.
     
  8. GreenMachine
    Skink

    GreenMachine Member

    Messages:
    39
    Likes Received:
    10
    Trophy Points:
    8
    As (self-appointed) Lustria Online's biggest advocate of Razordons, I feel the need to point out that monstrous support has been helfpul when I run them in a group of 4. This largely doesn't apply to salamanders because I've never seen someone run them in packs larger than two. But, I will run my razordons in 2x2 formation to reduce their footprint against things like hordes and still get all their attacks (minus the two stomps). So, basically exactly what Nightbringer said....

    Wyssan's is great on this huge unit, because suddenly those 12 skink attacks are at strength 4 and razordons absolutely eat knights, which people don't expect.
     
  9. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

    Messages:
    11,132
    Likes Received:
    21,593
    Trophy Points:
    113
    That would be deadly. I love the boosted version of Hand of Glory on a big unit of Razordons (around of 6 of them!). Park them right in front of an enemy unit....shoot with boosted BS, then stand and shoot with boosted BS, and then fight with boosted WS and I! And if they don't charge, then you can move yourself to you next ideal location using boosted movement and/or cast Hand of Glory again and repeat.
     
    GreenMachine likes this.
  10. latedave
    Skink

    latedave New Member

    Messages:
    20
    Likes Received:
    12
    Trophy Points:
    3
    2 x 2 is interesting but then you're more or less the cost of an Ancient Steg , can't work out whether I prefer the thunderstomp, blowpipes and stubborn.
     

Share This Page