1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

8th Ed. BRB Lores of Magic - A Deep Dive

Discussion in 'Other Armies Discussion' started by NIGHTBRINGER, Dec 18, 2021.

  1. Scalenex
    Slann

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

    Messages:
    8,657
    Likes Received:
    15,444
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I would add something I noticed with the lore of Beasts. I haven't seen a lot of Level 4 Beasts casters hitting the table top but level L1 and L2 Beast casters are relatively common.

    This should probably be covered for all the lores, not just Beasts. You can go all out with a level 4 caster or you can run with a level 1 or 2 caster. Or you can go crazy and take a Level 4 and a level 2 caster so you can be more or less guaranteed to get all the spells between them.

    Level 3 casters do not exist. They are an urban legend.

    Some benefit more than others, but every unit in the game likes +1 Strength and Toughness. If you can get a low level caster casting Wyssans Wildform on a critical melee now and then, that's lovely, but it's not game breaking if you fail to cast it, so you don't have to base your whole strategy on it, just a tiny aspect.

    While it's technically possible to run a level 4 Beast caster with Vampire Counts and it would theoretically synergize well with the hero based power of a VC army, most of the few times I saw Lore of Beasts used on the Carpe Noctem forums it was a level one or two caster mostly for Wyssans.

    I have never pulled this off successively, but I often hope I roll Transformation of Kadon on a low level wizard and tempt Irresistible Force with five or six dice figuring that once I have a new monster on the table, it won't matter if my wizard can't cast again.

    That's pure theoryhammer. I have never managed to pull off that trick with a Skink priest or Empire wizard actually casting Transformation of Kadon successfully in a real game.
     
  2. Scalenex
    Slann

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

    Messages:
    8,657
    Likes Received:
    15,444
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I was just thinking that on the Empire forums, there is a strategy of taking 3-4 level one wizards all with a different lore. This was nicknamed the wizard council, but there was no consensus on which 3-4 lores to take.

    But it ultimately boils down. "If I roll insert spell name here I will be very happy. If I have to settle for the signature spell, I will be content."
     
  3. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

    Messages:
    56,303
    Likes Received:
    173,762
    Trophy Points:
    113
    [​IMG]

    I'll be enjoying this later on tonight with a nice cup of tea. :)
     
  4. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

    Messages:
    56,303
    Likes Received:
    173,762
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Awesome write-up with some great insights! And you finished it super quick too (I'm just at the beginning stages of my Lore of Metal analysis).

    That is very clever! I never thought of that, but it would be priceless!

    I agree with your points, which is why I've never really liked the Transformation of Kadon spell. It sounds awesome, but losing the ability to cast spells and having any wounds suffered transferred back to your wizard really ruins it.

    Aside from the fact that the Amber Spear hits automatically while the Stegadon's giant bow is notorious for consistently missing! :p

    Personally, the Amber Spear is one of the spells that I most love to field, but that is probably because, as you mentioned, my armies [TK, CD, WoC & LM] lack access to cannons or cheap bolt throwers.




    Would you agree that the Curse of Anraheir and Wyssan's are generally the best spells in the lore, while Flock of Doom and Transformation of Kadon are generally the first ones you'd want to trade for the signature?

    Which, if any, of the BRB lores do you feel are outright better than Beasts (in most situations or for most armies)?

    Do you feel that the Lore of Beasts works better for level 1 & 2 wizards (due to the strength of Wyssan's Wildform) or would you prefer to have it on a level 4? Would you ever give it to a Slann (considering all the other options available to him)?

    Which army that has access to the Lore of Beasts most benefits from it? Beastmen for the reasons you highlighted? Which army that normally can't access it, do you feel would most benefit from it? (similar to how I proposed the Lore of Life for Chaos Dwarfs)
     
  5. Cptn Timmy
    Cold One

    Cptn Timmy Active Member

    Messages:
    103
    Likes Received:
    202
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Hey all. For some reason I didn't get a notification from that tag. I'm just catching up on this thread now and will read the beasts write up today. I can tackle shadow as it is probably the lore I am most versed in. If there are no takers already.
     
  6. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

    Messages:
    56,303
    Likes Received:
    173,762
    Trophy Points:
    113
    AWESOME! I've added you to the list! Looking forward to reading your analysis. :)


    Lore of Fire - @ASSASSIN_NR_1
    Lore of Beasts - @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl

    Lore of Metal - @NIGHTBRINGER
    Lore of Light
    Lore of Life
    Lore of Heavens - @Lizards of Renown
    Lore of Shadow - @Cptn Timmy
    Lore of Death
     
  7. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

    Messages:
    9,330
    Likes Received:
    23,330
    Trophy Points:
    113
  8. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

    Messages:
    56,303
    Likes Received:
    173,762
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I've still got quite a bit of work to do on metal. I have it started though!
     
  9. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

    Messages:
    9,330
    Likes Received:
    23,330
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Based on the quality of the write-up from @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl and what I'm expecting from you, the bar has been set pretty high!
     
  10. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

    Messages:
    56,303
    Likes Received:
    173,762
    Trophy Points:
    113
    @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl

    Any thoughts on the points/questions I raised in response to your excellent Lore of Beasts Deep Dive write-up?
     
  11. PlasmaDavid
    Temple Guard

    PlasmaDavid Active Member

    Messages:
    236
    Likes Received:
    71
    Trophy Points:
    28
    You ought to find an active WFB blog/podcast/whatever to submit this to, always get more WFB content to the wider fanbase!
     
  12. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
    Slann

    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Eleventh Spawning

    Messages:
    6,896
    Likes Received:
    15,257
    Trophy Points:
    113
    That's fair, I missed out The Amber Spear being able to hit automatically, but you're right in that it is at its most beneficial to armies that normally can't access Cannons or Bolt Throwers. Armies that do have one or both of these war machine options will find a lot less use for it.

    Answered these questions in amendments I've applied to my original post (told you it would be continued!)

    Death, Heavens and Fire are a lot more killy than Beasts, but Beasts is meant to be a buffing and debuffing lore rather than a damaging one, so comparing it to those is pretty much chalk and cheese. Shadow has decent buff and debuff spells (The Enfeebling Foe, The Withering and Okkam's come to mind) but those are the only three that are of any contest to it, and Beasts has in general more spells that are of use in most armies (The Flock of Doom is the only one that could really be called useless much of the time). Personally I think the only lore that stands as a real challenge to Beasts is Life, with its ability to resurrect fallen models in non-Undead armies and buffing and debuffing spells aplenty. Perhaps Light as well, but I'm no expert in that lore and the only spell I can think of off the top of my head is The Speed of Light which is the reason why I've mentioned it.

    An easy answer to that would be Orcs and Goblins - Orcs and Trolls of all stripes would become a lot more dangerous with Wyssan's, Pelt and Savage Beast, the army would benefit a lot from the empowered version of Amber Spear and The Flock of Doom will give them more of an incitement to go monster-heavy.
     
  13. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
    Slann

    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Eleventh Spawning

    Messages:
    6,896
    Likes Received:
    15,257
    Trophy Points:
    113
    And @The Great White Lizard, my fellow Beastlord, now that you're back perhaps you'd care to join in this effort to evaluate the Lores of Magic? Apologies for grabbing the Lore of Beasts before you could get chance, I just couldn't help myself thanks to my desire to learn it for when I build my own Warherd to a suitable size for gaming. I still hope you enjoy reading my evaluation of it, though.

    Death is usable by the Cloven Ones though, perhaps you'd like to share your thoughts on that one?
     
  14. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

    Messages:
    9,330
    Likes Received:
    23,330
    Trophy Points:
    113
  15. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

    Messages:
    56,303
    Likes Received:
    173,762
    Trophy Points:
    113
    That is exciting... I can't wait to read it!! !!!!!.png
     
  16. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
    Slann

    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Eleventh Spawning

    Messages:
    6,896
    Likes Received:
    15,257
    Trophy Points:
    113
    :wideyed:

    I'm unsure if mine would exceed 2 pages let alone four... perhaps I haven't written enough, but to be honest I can't think of anything more I can say regarding my lore of choice.

    Anyway, it should be interesting to see how the two evaluations square up. I look forward to reading it soon! :)
     
  17. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

    Messages:
    9,330
    Likes Received:
    23,330
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I wasn't referring to the length. I think you did a great job of breaking the lore down, so feel I need to put some decent work in to make mine at least as good. :)
     
  18. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

    Messages:
    56,303
    Likes Received:
    173,762
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Put some work into my Lore of Metal Deep Dive analysis. Not as far along as @Lizards of Renown , but well on my way. Just about to get into what will form the very heart of my breakdown.
    Plenty of work to do, but I like what I have so far. !!!!!.png

    I'm hoping everyone will find my take on the lore interesting and my method of examination useful.
     
  19. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

    Messages:
    56,303
    Likes Received:
    173,762
    Trophy Points:
    113
    That's pretty close to how I would rank them. It's a rare day when we are in such close agreement. !!!!!.png
     
  20. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

    Messages:
    9,330
    Likes Received:
    23,330
    Trophy Points:
    113
    LORE OF HEAVENS

    This lore has a nice mix of the various types of spells, such that it lends itself to some forward planning with your army.

    The different types of spells, for me, give this lore a strategic edge. Not just giving you an edge on combat, but really messing with gunlines, moving troops around and denying sections of the battlefield.

    SPELLS

    Lore Attribute – Roiling Skies:

    This Lore Attribute is not a great one. Giving a model with Fly D6 S4 hits doesn’t really make anyone shudder with fear, but occasionally this will help you out. It occurs so infrequently for me that I also sometimes forget to apply it.

    Signature Spell – Iceshard Blizzard (7+)

    This, in my opinion, is the most useful spell from the lore. Not the most powerful or intimidating, but most useful. Why? It has a relatively low casting cost and, as the signature spell, can be taken automatically and also taken multiple times by Level 1 fodder-wizards.

    To give one of your units a -1 to hit in combat is huge. With the 8th edition WS grid you have to be double +1 compared to your opponents WS to make you 5+ to hit. The Strength vs Toughness chart remained as it was in earlier editions, where every single point of difference changes the odds (e.g. S3 to T3 = 4’s to wound, S4 to T3 = 3’s to wound, S5 to T3 = 2’s to wound). So in combat if you can push the percent of hits from 50% to 33% or from 66% to 50% this is quite major.

    To cause a set of enemy missile troops to have -1 to hit is also pretty good. It can tip shooting over the edge for most armies (Empire, Orcs & Goblins, Dwarfs, Chaos Dwarfs, Ogre Kingdoms) as if you are also at long distance (likely) then this is -2 to hit. Suddenly your opponent needs 5’s or 6’s to hit. If cast on a war machine, you are effectively giving your army a 4+ ward save against it’s hits, as your opponent needs to roll a 4+ to hit. If you have a couple of wizards you could even luck out and neutralize two war machines.

    How about casting this on a unit twice? -2 to hit in close combat or missile troops that are at -2 to hit your troops? For a 6+ spell? This is, if you’ll pardon the pun, magic.

    1. Harmonic Convergence (6+)

    Augment spell so that your troops re-roll to hit, to wound and armour save rolls of 1. Can be boosted to affect all troops in 12” for a 12+. This is okay. I would have preferred that it was slightly less than the Iceshard Blizzard on casting as you get a 1 in 6 chance of a re-roll which still might end up being naff. This is a spell to fire off with your spare power dice or to draw out dispel dice from your opponent. Don’t get me wrong, every so often this will be very helpful and could sway a combat in your favour. However, given a choice I’d go with Iceshard Blizzard which has a definite affect which is superior.

    2. Wind Blast (7+)

    Third favourite spell of the lore because you have to be in the right position to really use this effectively. This pushes a target D3+1 inches directly away from the caster or boosted (14+) to D6+2. If you collide with a unit, both take D6 S3 hits. If you collide with an object (or if the affected unit cannot move) take D6 S3 hits.

    Obviously no-one is quivering about S3 hits. Not when the average is going to be 3 or 4. However, strategically this is a good one. Not as good as the Hand of Gork (or is it Mork? ;) ) where you can move one of your own units around, but still good.

    Push a unit back so it is out of charge range. Push a supporting unit back so you have a chance to defeat a different unit in combat first. Push a Chariot or unit into dangerous terrain and force the dice rolls for this. Or a Mangler Squig into a friendly unit and watch the fun unfold as it now becomes subject to random movement. The disadvantage is that it has to be directly away from the caster, so you need a mobile wizard to take full advantage. But Arabyan carpet is a free-for-all item. How about pushing a unit into range of missile troops? Or away from a BSB re-roll bubble or General’s leadership bubble?

    3. Curse of the Midnight Wind (10+)

    Slightly crappier cousin of Harmonic Convergence. Make enemy re-roll to hit, to wound and armour saves of 6+. Ostensibly not bad, but when you consider it 10+ to cast then it becomes a spell you should just switch for harmonic convergence.

    4. Urannon’s Thunderbolt (10+)

    Decent Magic Missile. D6 S6 hits. Nothing amazing considering 10+ casting cost. Still good and can have boosted range for 13+. ‘Nuff said.

    5. Comet of Cassandora (12+)

    Second favourite spell of the lore. If cast successfully, then you put a marker down and in EACH magic phase (not just your own) you roll a dice and either you get an immediate 2D6 inch blast of 2D6+2 S6 hits, or you add a counter making a possible S7 2D6+3 hits. And it just keep building. And you can put it ANYWHERE. (There is the boosted version that starts with 2 counters and adds 2 each turn for the higher casting cost)

    If it lands in a timely fashion (which sometimes doesn’t happen at all or is way too late) it will do a lot of damage. But this isn’t the main benefit of the spell. You are effectively creating a major danger zone for the opponent. Who wants to have their prize unit destroyed because they chanced moving through that space? How about freaking out a gunline general with his war machines by placing it overhead. Used properly, you can deny a section of the battlefield to the enemy, force well-placed troops to move or destroy a slow moving but deadly unit.

    The other value is psychological. Make sure your opponent knows that you have this spell. Watch them hoard their dispel dice to make sure you can’t cast it. Cast your Iceshard Blizzards with little or no opposition. Force dispel scrolls to be used. If used correctly you can intimidate the enemy without casting it once.

    6. Chain Lightning (15+)

    Just like Urannon’s Thunderbolt, but there is a 3+ chance the lightning will jump to another unit within 6”. Sounds great, but in real life either you can’t line up that theoretical immense chain reaction or, if you do, the dice gods send you a roll of 1 just when you need it. Considering Comet of Cassandora is 12+ casting cost, it is the superior choice given that there is a high chance of doing the same effect as a 10+ spell.

    PROS & CONS

    Like I said above, there are some strategic spells in this lore that can definitely help you do a strategy. You can always get Iceshard Blizzard so can factor this in to opposing gunline or very-shooty armies (Dwarfs, Wood Elves, etc.)

    Downsides is that aside from the very tempermental Comet spell, there is nothing that will help you kaboom some big monster. Urannon’s is okay, but it’s just D6 hits. All in all, aside from not having that heavy-punch spell, it is a good all-rounder for any army.

    ARMY INTERACTIONS (Legal Disclaimer: As I have not played with every army, I will freely admit that there is a certain amount of Theory-Hammer happening here.)

    LIZARDMEN: Good lore to use, especially with Tetto’Eko who has the Loremaster rule for this as well as special rule for Comet of Cassandora which makes it a lot more effective. Even though Lizardmen don’t have any war machines, it is still a decent lore considering the effects on combat which plays into one of their strengths and the Iceshard Blizzard is key so that you can negate as much of gunlines/missile troop attacks as possible before entering combat. Specifically, Iceshard is excellent when used as the lore to hamper war machine fire on your Steg’s or Carno’s.

    I will say that Lizardmen Generals who don’t use Wandering Deliberations to get Iceshard Blizzard are missing out as this is a much more well-rounded way to get the best spell of the lot. I would always do Wandering Deliberations or Focus of Mystery if I’m fielding a Slann.

    EMPIRE: A good lore to use. Since the Empire has many options of high strength (and with 8th Edition rules, laser guidance) cannons that can be used to nerf monsters and other war machines, so this lore can give you the edge you need in combat, mitigate damage from missile troops with Iceshard and otherwise help you use your superior numbers against a higher quality army (HE, DE, WoC, etc.) by moving some troops around and denying sections of the battle field.

    BRETTONIA: Still decent. Brettonia does have some war machines, but the main worry that I can see would be ensuring that the opposing war machines are stopped from taking out your knight formations before they arrive into combat (or missile troops taking their toll). The augment/hex spells are always useful and CoC can be used to force enemy troops to move in a certain way or take out the gunline.

    HIGH ELVES: Based on the High Elf high movement, good missile troops, high WS, it seems like High Magic is the better choice or a lore that augments strength and toughness (as the primary weakness to shore up for this army).

    WOOD ELVES: This seems like a bad choice for this army. Wood Elves have High WS and BS, LOTS of missile troops and the main weakness is sold anvil troops to take the charges and no major war machines. If anything, I’d be wanting to get some punchy spells to shore up my weakness there, so that I can take out the opposing monster/lord/war machine so that my highly mobile troops can continue to run rings around the enemy.

    DARK ELVES: Mediocre choice for this army, but only because Lore of Dark Magic is great synergy for Dark Elves. Dark Elves also have a lot of shooting troops, can take a bunch of Repeater Bolt Throwers and have a generally very fast moving army. They have high WS, Always Strikes First and a high initiative so the hex/augment spells are really just overkill here. One of the best uses of magic is to shore up weaknesses. If I was not taking Lore of Dark Magic (which has some very killy spells), then I would go with Beasts for augmenting my Stength/Toughness which is the greatest weakness of an Elf army. I will say that Iceshard Blizzard is a great spell for anyone to counter war machines, so this still fits here.

    OGRE KINGDOMS: Decent choice, but with one HUGE drawback which I will explain in a minute. Protecting your generally lightly armour ogres from missile fire is good and giving them an edge in combat is good. Using comet to combat gunlines is good. It's all useful. HOWEVER, to get a magic user with this lore means you have to take two expensive Ogre characters, as the first needs to take Lore of the Great Maw. As all Ogre Kingdom models are expensive (bar Gnoblars, gotta love the little guys), taking two wizards just to get this lore is pointless. Lore of the Great Maw has a good synergy with the army and is a good choice. I would even go so far as to say a great choice.

    DAEMONS OF CHAOS: This lore can be accessed via the Blue Scribes (randomly generated spell) or Kairos Fateweaver. The lore is decent, as this army possesses no missile infantry and their shooting comes from Khorne Cannons and the expensive Soul Grinder with upgrades. So protecting with Iceshard is good, the combat augments are okay and the comet is still good to combat gunlines or heavy-shooting troop armies. However, the Blue Scribes generates a random spell that cannot be the signature spell so this is missing out on the best one and Kairos is 565 points which (in my opinion) he is not worth so just to take this for this lore isn't a good choice.

    VAMPIRE COUNTS: Lore can be accessed through one of the Vampire upgrades (bizarrely pointed out by their greatest adversary @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl ;) ). This lore is a good choice in that there is little shooting from this army so protecting units is good. The combat upgrades are always welcome and will assist in the mass advance of the crappy basic infantry. The army is mostly slow moving, so dictating and controlling parts of the battlefield with Comet is very useful. However, the Lore of Vampires has (in my opinion) the best army synergy in the game and you'd be a fool to give up regenerating units, making NEW units, etc. just for these benefits.
    -

    So that’s my review of the lore. Hopefully helpful to someone and hopefully not full of major holes! :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2022

Share This Page