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8th Ed. Fighting those rats

Discussion in 'Lizardmen & Saurian Ancients Tactics' started by sombrastewart, Apr 29, 2015.

  1. Tecuani
    Saurus

    Tecuani Member

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    A lot of the problem here is, Eighth edition has become increasingly hostile to infantry blocks. High strength template weapons, increasingly powerful thunderstomping monsters, and spells which hit every model in a unit can all casually decimate or destroy even a tough infantry block, and it doesn't help that I1 makes saurus particularly vulnerable to some of the most destructive spells. Even if they survive into combat, T4 and a 4+ save just isn't particularly resilient any more. Savage Orc Big'Uns are only one of several units that can easily inflict heavy casualties, especially with such overpowered Hex/Augment spells in play.
    My own experiences with them were very much that I was paying points for extra toughness and armour save that often didn't translate into resilience on the battlefield, in which case I may as well just have put down a horde of cheap skinks which still die, but give away less VPs when they do.
     
  2. Kocki
    Skink

    Kocki New Member

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    How about that crazy idea:

    6x Skink Chiefs with 2nd hand weapon, 1x Skink Chief battle standard bearer with skavenpelt banner, 4 Kroxigors, 37 Skinks with CMS. Unit 6 wide and 10 deep, you have INI6 and normaly should attack first against Skaven, with 30 attacks strength 4, and the reroll of hitting this is really nice. And if this is not enough 12 attacks from the Kroxigors follow also with hatred, costs round about 800 points, but this Unit can also handle the hellpit or other strong units from skaven..... Beside this run a Slaan and Templeguard unit and you have 2 really good breakers :).
     
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  3. Qupakoco
    Skink Chief

    Qupakoco Keeper of the Dice Staff Member

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    I'll toss in my thoughts on this too, since my main opponent plays Skaven.

    Firstly, Skaven are unreliable. Your opponent should know this and will bring enough options to make up for any unpredictable accidents. Just keep your fingers crossed and usually something exciting will happen :D

    WLC is usually best tackled by Salamanders or Chameleons. If he has the Storm Banner going, just charge the dumb thing. Your Chameleons should be able to get to it by turn 2 even if he outdrops you, Salamander can likely get there just as fast if you make a run for it. A lot comes down to deployment though, since that's where you get to pick your fights.

    Verminlord is Oldblood/Scar-Vet bait. I wouldn't send anything else into it besides some Skirmishers. If he doesn't have the banner going you should be able to bring it down with a couple rounds of shooting.

    Doomwheel is Skink/Skrox/Krox territory. You can probably get rid of it pretty quickly. A Saurus charge into the side of it is always welcome, but very unlikely.

    I'll repeat what some others said too, Saurus Saurus Saurus. Skaven players don't like fighting them, especially if you buff the unit in any way. A 24-strong unit should be enough to deal with most their stuff, plus should survive a Dreaded 13th if they need to. Watch out for Crack's Call too.
     
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  4. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    The HPA is my biggest fear when facing Skaven. It's a tough cookie; one of the few things that can't be easily dealt with using a cowboy or two. I hate having to rely on magic, but I can't see a better option. Kroxigors, who are usually monster killers are no match against a hellpit... it's too damn powerful.

    Anyone have a close combat solution for the HPA? Or is it simply magic and shooting?
     
  5. Qupakoco
    Skink Chief

    Qupakoco Keeper of the Dice Staff Member

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    Saurus buffed with Timewarp and Speed of Light comes to mind. Fireball/Burning Head works sometimes.

    I've also done a Skink Chief with the Flaming Banner in a unit of Skrox. Just don't shoot at it and give away the secret too early ;) (or conversely chase it around with this unit. He's afraid of fire!!!)

    The Burning Blade of Chotec was pretty nice back in 7th. Seeing how Skaven are on the 7th edition book, it really made sense for us to have that weapon. Wish we still did :mad:
     
  6. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    Those are all good suggestions, but they are all magic reliant which really worries me for its unreliability.

    That's an interesting option if tailoring a list to combat Skaven. I've never taken a Skink Chief BSB as I'm worried that he is too squishy (especially when carrying a magic standard!).
    But now we have the Plaque of Dominion bound spell magic item... how would we ever get by without that? ;):wideyed:;) I wish we had kept some of our gems from our previous magic item list. We really lost quite a few of our best items.
     
  7. Kocki
    Skink

    Kocki New Member

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    Shoot the HPA down.

    Take something like this:

    • Heroes
      • Skink Chief
        Terradon
        • Battle Standard Bearer
          BRB - Banner of Eternal Flame
    • Special
      • Chameleon Skinks
        20x Chameleon Skink

    and you have the possibility to get it away in the first round.
     
  8. protector
    Temple Guard

    protector Active Member

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    The one thing I've found that reliably destroys a HPA is temple guard with the banner of eternal flame. Buffed initiative to 3 with a bastilodon and they are much better, if you can get HoG on them then they will probably hit first and crush it before it can hit back. Of course wyssans on temple guards is just ridiculous, T5 can take his hits better and everything with regen melts to S6 flaming attacks.
     
  9. Man0waR
    Kroxigor

    Man0waR Member

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    Banner of eternal flame on a Skink cohort with musician.
    Swift reform wide in two ranks, advance 6" and shoot.

    If not dead in that turn of shooting, in combat you'll do it. Sooner or later.

    I did that in my last game against skaven where my slann was bunkered inside 30 skink cohort. Swift reform 15x2, move 4" and shoot 30 shots. 7 poisons dead.

    On a not so extreme example.

    Cohort with banner of eternal flame (w/skink bsb). shoot 9 javelins (4 front rank + 5 second rank) +1 WS5 javelin. You should score one wound at least

    Rest of the skinks finish the job.
     
  10. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    I'm think this may be the best option in an all comers list.
     
  11. Bainbow
    Bastiladon

    Bainbow Well-Known Member

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    My main strategy against the Skaven revolves around a tonne of Temple Guard (I go for about 40, no fewer than 30) with a Slann, but most importantly is the Skavenpelt Banner. I cannot stress how good that is against them, last time I went against Skaven my TG soloed the entire left side of the map, which was where all his stronger units were, including his Verminlord that died very quickly. Hatred and Frenzy is a beast of a combo, plus whatever buffs the Slann has for them.

    In addition to this, remember remember that if your opponent is doing some End Times stuff, that gives you all the excuse you need to whip out the biggest bonus the Lizardmen have: Khaine Magic. Take a Slann, give it Wandering Deliberations, fight a Khaine magic game and BAM, you have a guy capable of casting every spell in the rulebook. The Slann is stupidly OP with this, I only insist on Khaine rules if my opponent has an End Times character because otherwise I feel like I'm cheating.
     
  12. Almost
    Jungle Swarm

    Almost New Member

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    First time post so maby take this with a grain of salt.

    I agree with Agrem, Saurus Warriors and salamanders seem to do the job.

    I recently had a win against 2500 points of skaven with a screaming bell, plague furnace, 2 hordes of clan rats a horde of plague monks and more small units of slaves then he could get into combat.

    2x2 salamanders caused panic checks each turn and wiped out units of slaves. I managed a fire convocation and took out a unit of clan rats while a unit of 35 Saurus took out most of the plague monks before getting hit by the 13th.

    Just had to watch out for cracks call aimed at my slan but we weren't sure if I could look out sir for that?

    Can't comment on war machines or vermin lord though.
     
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  13. Gary_M
    Razordon

    Gary_M Well-Known Member

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    Don't think anyone's mentioned railroading? I asked for some advice prior to playing a very experienced skaven player a few months ago and someone (apologies I can''t remember who) said to use this tactic, and explained what it was.
    I didn't think I'd be able to use it as it appeared situational, but against a very experienced player I was able to and managed to keep it from turning into my troops (I think it was the doomwheel) and shoot it with a unit of 10 skinks skirmishers.
    He also used the HPA, and I dealt with that via a block of saurus warriors getting the charge in (I was lucky as it lost combat and failed its leadership)
    I ended up with a slightly losing draw (he had marginally more points than me but differential was minimal) which, being quite a noob, I was delighted with.
     
  14. Qupakoco
    Skink Chief

    Qupakoco Keeper of the Dice Staff Member

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    Welcome to the forum! Nice sleeper post.
    Railroading may need a definition. I don't know what this tactic is.
     
  15. Irish_Lizard
    Saurus

    Irish_Lizard Member

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    Railroading is when a unit is placed 1" from the flank of a unit with the random movement special rule. As the unit must pivot and end in a legal position before moving the random mover is forced to either move straight forward(or back if virtual pivots are allowed) hence the term railroading as the random mover behaves like a train. Two caveats, this wont work under ETC and some other comp systems which fix this in various ways and this will also make you almost as popular as the local skaven player.

    As for the skaven matchup, its bad. The standard uncomped list with 3 mortar fiends and 3 rattling fiends will lift 2 blocks a round and the cannon fits in nicely as well. Pre storm fiends it was a dicey match that we could win half the time. Now its just bad. Spells to worry about include Ryze, Plague, D13, Vermintide, Scorch, Wither and Death frenzy on Stormvermin. Expect 2 lvl 4 casters and pray one of them is an easy to kill vermin lord. 120 slaves seems standard with a block of 40 stormvermin. The bell is the only unit left in the game which can charge in the magic phase and it happens half the time on one dice. Beware of the toys, doomrocket(s5 large blast), brass orb(small pit of shades), Warp seer's orb(same as brass orb), stormbanner(no flying and -2 to hit with shooting), skalm(heals full wounds), fellblade(s10 d6W reroll wards), potion of strength+ weeping blades(s7 ap d3W probably on an assassin with asf), powerscroll(plague on a 3 or dreaded 13th on a 9), Warpstone tokens( 1 power dice each, can be used to cast either with regular dice or on their own, Grey seers get D3 for free).

    Life is great at dwellersing the seer off a bell but t8 saurus get ruined by the bell result which says each model t>6 takes d3W. Death magic and high are the two best choices against them.

    As for the argument that khaine magic helps that only holds until the skaven player realizes that he can take 10 plague priests and cast wither as many times as he has dice. Plus I have never heard of a tournament allowing it for good reason.
     

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