1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

8th Ed. If you could get GW to produce any single model/unit, what would it be?

Discussion in 'Other Armies Discussion' started by NIGHTBRINGER, Jul 5, 2021.

  1. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

    Messages:
    77,500
    Likes Received:
    248,288
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Having their entire line removed from Forge World is somewhat concerning. If they do make a return, I really hope they don't go with the AoS aesthetic.
     
  2. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
    Slann

    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Eleventh Spawning

    Messages:
    8,892
    Likes Received:
    19,882
    Trophy Points:
    113
    As I said before, I'm wondering if that was because they will return in plastic, as there are no other ways to go for the Chaos Grand Alliance at the moment in terms of new factions (unless they bring back something even more obscure like Fimir), and if they wanted to keep them as Forge World they would have preserved the Forge World range. What's more, their obsession with plastic Sisters of Battle has now been satisfied in their apology to the Adeptas Sororitas fans, so maybe the next stratagem is to make a similar apology to Chaos Dwarf fans. The appearance of Hobgoblins as part of the new Kruleboyz model range signifies if they've survived the transition into AoS, with distinctly un-Orcy grenades, it's likely the Dawi Zharr will also return.

    There's always a chance they'd go with the AoS aesthetic, but I can't see it happening, given the lack of popularity of those models and the enduring cult status of the original Fantasy concept. If they did then there would most certainly be a fan backlash and the range wouldn't sell well, and I don't think GW wants to risk that.
     
    BrotherSutek and NIGHTBRINGER like this.
  3. BrotherSutek
    Ripperdactil

    BrotherSutek Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    422
    Likes Received:
    807
    Trophy Points:
    93
    I do hope we get a solid support for the army. Khemeric Titan for a centerpiece model... as for the non VC bias, I've never seen it happen yet so I'd love to have the TK get the same love and attention.
     
  4. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

    Messages:
    77,500
    Likes Received:
    248,288
    Trophy Points:
    113
    After the stunning successes of Cursed City, Crimson Court and Soulblight Gravelords releases, can you really blame them? Even when the TK got their awesome 8th Edition models, they couldn't really match the Vampire Counts in terms of sales/interest. The TK have always been a sort of niche army; not as niche as something like the Chaos Dwarfs, but still far from being a mainstream faction.
     
  5. ASSASSIN_NR_1
    Carnasaur

    ASSASSIN_NR_1 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,174
    Likes Received:
    1,923
    Trophy Points:
    113
    How were the various factions ranked in terms of popularity, if you know?
     
  6. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

    Messages:
    77,500
    Likes Received:
    248,288
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Do you mean a complete ordered ranking?

    Broadly speaking factions like High Elves, Dark Elves, Orcs & Goblins, Empire, Warriors of Chaos, Dwarfs, Vampire Counts and the like were always at the top of the heap. Armies like Tomb Kings, Ogre Kingdoms, Beastmen and Bretonnia were always on the outskirts.
     
  7. ASSASSIN_NR_1
    Carnasaur

    ASSASSIN_NR_1 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,174
    Likes Received:
    1,923
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Not necessarily ordered.
    What you have given here is fine :)
     
    NIGHTBRINGER likes this.
  8. BrotherSutek
    Ripperdactil

    BrotherSutek Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    422
    Likes Received:
    807
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Can I blame them? Yes. Tomb Kings did get some amazing models and for a while I wasn't the only person to play the army. This was great but then we played with the 8th edition army book and in two months I was the only one left with an army. It doesn't matter how good the models are if the rules are subpar. VC always get the best of both worlds and of course they will sell more models. When I read the VC book I saw many ways to play the army and they all worked, TK had two that worked IMO and not that well. I'm not trying to be sour grapes but the bias put me off the VC that I did own and made me sell mine off.
     
  9. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

    Messages:
    10,817
    Likes Received:
    26,482
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Thankfully, not everyone is like this my friend. Myself, @NIGHTBRINGER and @Killer Angel for a start.

    I got into them knowing that they are subpar. Why? I love the models (the whole ancient egypt thing is just super cool IMHO) and playing them is a good challenge. Also good when playing with more inexperienced players for me as I get a "handicap" :)

    (Currently this is me playing with my wife :D )
     
  10. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

    Messages:
    77,500
    Likes Received:
    248,288
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The problem is that even under their 6th edition book, which you admitted was very good and well balanced, they still weren't big sellers. On the flip side, look at the Orcs & Goblins in 8th edition, their book was easily in the bottom four in terms of power level, but they remained big sellers. Regardless of rules, O&G easily outsell TK, and thus they get more attention.

    GW produces models that will sell. If an army sells better than another one, the better selling one will get more releases. The reason why they produce and update Space Marine models so frequently is because they outsell everything else by a very large margin. As long as they continue to do so, they will remain front and center.

    Completely separate from rules, Vampire Counts have always been more popular than Tomb Kings.

    My wife and I also have much more balanced games when I field my TK. When I play my WoC, it is simply a massacre. The TK games are more fun for all parties involved.
     
    Lizards of Renown likes this.
  11. BrotherSutek
    Ripperdactil

    BrotherSutek Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    422
    Likes Received:
    807
    Trophy Points:
    93
    I got into them from seeing them in White Dwarf and loving the models and how the magic worked so different than any other. I played them and loved them all through 7th. 8th killed the wanting to game with the same passion. I still love the models from Dogs of War best but the Tomb Kings are glorious other than the new liche priest that I don't care for.
     
  12. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
    Slann

    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Eleventh Spawning

    Messages:
    8,892
    Likes Received:
    19,882
    Trophy Points:
    113
    It seems that this trend correlates with the fact that the more popular factions were in the game right from the beginning - Empire, High Elves, Dark Elves, Dwarfs, Skaven, WoC (as the main part of the Chaos book), Wood Elves and Vampire Counts (the closer faction in aesthetic and feel to the original Undead faction) were the main playable factions in 4th Edition (the Edition in which Warhammer as we know it was born - editions before that featured mostly job-lot armies with units from all different races bound by D&D-style alignments. By contrast Tomb Kings were separated from Vampire Counts in 6th Edition, Ogres appeared in 6th, Beastmen were separated from the rest of Chaos in 6th, Daemons did the same in 7th and Bretonnians appeared in 5th, all of which were produced purely to increase the variety of the game beyond the original base factions with varying levels of success. Of course there were exceptions to this rule - Lizardmen were introduced in 5th Edition but have risen to become one of the more popular factions, Wood Elves, originally introduced in 4th, became overshadowed by the other two Elf factions, and Chaos Dwarfs, while introduced in 4th, were treated at a disadvantage to all the other factions from the start with a White Dwarf exclusive book, but otherwise the trend holds.

    However, I agree with @BrotherSutek that just because these armies were less popular, it didn't make it right for GW to deliberately give these factions subpar rules and/or just avoid giving them decent ones. The fact they were still played and loved by a portion of the Warhammer community meant it was GW's duty, as the developer of the game, to give that portion of the community the attention they deserved, as loyal customers and players should be treated, and GW failed in that duty, only giving real attention to their favourite Golden Boy factions just because they consistently sold well. What has resulted is a game that in a way is elitist, with players of GW's fave factions being rewarded with better and better rules, while those with less popular factions effectively being punished for that by having to perform worse and worse in games, just because they chose to play a faction different from the norm, just because they liked the models and the lore of that faction and not one of GW's favourites. The whole point of developing a game is for all players to have an equal chance of winning and losing, so that no player has a special advantage over any other, otherwise anyone who does want a fair, fun game won't play if they have any self-respect. @NIGHTBRINGER you say yourself that whenever you play your Warriors of Chaos against @Mrs. NIGHTBRINGER 's Wood Elves, they stomp them - doesn't that bother you? Doesn't it make you concerned that the conclusion of such a game is already a foregone one? I'm surprised the Mrs actually even bothers to play your Chaos Warriors if she knows she's going to lose to them - she must love you very much to keep on agreeing to do so.

    I wonder if this was a factor that contributed to Warhammer Fantasy's dying sales originally? The fact that GW wasn't going to clean up their act towards less well-loved factions putting players of all factions except the Golden Boy armies off?
     
    ASSASSIN_NR_1 and BrotherSutek like this.
  13. BrotherSutek
    Ripperdactil

    BrotherSutek Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    422
    Likes Received:
    807
    Trophy Points:
    93
    In both 7th and 8th I played my Wood Elves as an avoidance list using the Sethayla style tactics. I did well but people complained that my unarmoured troops would just rank up and fight their unit of doom head on. I used the tools I had and there is a very low chance a "deathstar" of wood elves with spear are going to do much against a unit half their size of chosen warriors of chaos. Each armybhas and should have a different way to play, this makes your army choice more interesting IMO. That being said as Lord Agragax said that shouldn't mean the less popular armies should get less solid rules.
     
  14. Killer Angel
    Slann

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

    Messages:
    14,937
    Likes Received:
    32,866
    Trophy Points:
    113


    The funny thing is that, while ta great number of players enjoy when their faction is buffed and they can crush weakest opponent, patting themselves on the shoulders as if they were some kind of tactical genius, there are also a minority of players that are not happy at all when their army bocomes overpowered, to the point of being enbarassed as if it was their fault.

    Speaking for myself, I'm not in love with SM, but i haven't still played a game with them since the beginning of 9th ed.
    And while i love Admech, with the coming of their new codex i simply refused to play 3x20 skitarii rangers/vanguard and units of 5 ironstrider ballistarii.
     
  15. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
    Slann

    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Eleventh Spawning

    Messages:
    8,892
    Likes Received:
    19,882
    Trophy Points:
    113
    That is a fair point, and these latter players quite rightly play their army conscientiously by avoiding the powergaming builds and using what they want to use, which I applaud. Perfect example of this is my High Elf army, High Elves are supposedly up there in the top tier, but my army simply comprises of the models I like and I found most accessible to buy - the models and units from the Island of Blood box, some more of the Sea Guard, a couple of extra Mages, a Noble, 15 Spearmen, 8 Silver Helms, 24 Archers,1 Tiranoc Chariot, 2 Great Eagles and a box of 10 Wood Elf Eternal Guard/Wildwood Rangers that I originally bought as more Spearmen but am contemplating making and painting as White Lions (following the woodsman theme more than the lion theme). I never run hordes in my armies because I hate 8th Edition's obsession with them, and I'm avoiding using the Banner of the World Dragon given all the stink about it.

    However, not all people see it this way. A fair few will always be there to exploit the most powerful army builds, and some even choose a particular army not so much because the models look great or the lore's interesting, but because they wanted an army that'd win games for them. Of course there will always be douchebags in every community, because people are people, but GW could certainly minimise the amount of this happening by giving all their armies decent rules, keeping them roughly balanced, and the ability to play in their own unique styles - that was the whole point of Warhammer Fantasy in the first place, to recreate spectacular fantasy battles on the tabletop.

    But it seems they won't listen to us, because they're doing the same in AoS (admittedly there have been some reverses to the trend thus far - Nighthaunt for example are a particularly popular faction but have been mediocre in tournament play, while Fyreslayers despite being far less popular are pretty powerful when used right, but that may well change in the new edition now I've mentioned it, particularly given the ridiculous rules they've been coming up with for Slaanesh, Lumineth and Soulblight) and, as you @Killer Angel pointed out, the most recent editions of 40K, because they focus more on profit than keeping things fun and balanced.
     
    BrotherSutek and Killer Angel like this.
  16. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

    Messages:
    10,817
    Likes Received:
    26,482
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I've always found this phenomena hilarious. I guess the tactical genius is choosing the most powerful army just purely based on needing to be the big dog on campus? :)

    I don't have a problem if people want to play the high-tier armies. Each to their own. I just don't play with power gamers who aren't playing a GAME to have FUN as it normally ends up being hours of angst. I don't need any of that. Thankfully I have several friends who I really enjoy playing with and actually hanging out with. To me this is the entire frigging point.

    I've never met one of these people...
     
  17. BrotherSutek
    Ripperdactil

    BrotherSutek Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    422
    Likes Received:
    807
    Trophy Points:
    93
    We had a guy on our 40k group who would see the best list online and buy that list and play it till it wasn't the best. Then he'd sell it and buy the next hot army. The money involved still hurts me but that was him. He left our group as we were more casual, still competitive, and not tourney focused. We were boring him. I don't damn him as that's how he likes to play and he was really good. I'm not going to show up with a casual list when I play him that being said.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2021
  18. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

    Messages:
    77,500
    Likes Received:
    248,288
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Am I understanding this correctly; is your theory that GW deliberately gave unpopular armies weak rules?! o_O This is the problem with internet speculation, you've constructed this entire narrative without a shred of evidence. Saying that GW purposefully wrote weak rules for unpopular armies is a pretty substantial claim, especially when it is unsupported. There are so many problems with this theory and so many much more plausible explanations.

    On the low end of the power scale, you are basing your theory off of a singular data point. Of the bottom 4 armies [Bretonnia, Beastmen, Tomb Kings and Orcs & Goblins], two are running old books, so their lack of power is much more attributable to that factor rather than your proposed theory. While it is a shame that some armies were not updated, we can at least understand GW's rationale and regardless, that is a completely different argument from the one which you have proposed. Next, we have the O&G, who are one of the most popular factions, so that actually cuts directly against your narrative. So essentially your entire argument revolves around the Tomb Kings. Drawing such a definitive conclusion from a single weak army is foolhardy and dubious in my opinion (especially when the O&G offer a one-for-one counterpoint against it).

    A game with this level of complexity will never be perfectly balanced (look at T9A, they've sucked all the fun and life out of their game in pursuit of this mythical balance unicorn). If GW could wave a wand and have the game balanced without sacrificing the elements that make WFB so great, I'm sure they would (because a better game can only further help sell models). We're talking about a series of 12 army books, written across a span of multiple years and penned by numerous authors. Are you suggesting that GW throughout those many years instructed the AB authors of unpopular armies to write weak rules for them? Why? To potentially depress sales? And if so, I'm surprised not a single leak about this practice was ever released (as far as I know).


    Not only that, but the accusation doesn't even hold true:
    • O&G are extremely popular and they have weak rules
    • Ogre Kingdoms are not that popular and they have really strong rules
    • we have the absolute most popular armies residing in the upper, middle and lower tiers, and the same can be said for the less popular ones


    That's a bad example, because a significant skill gap exists between us. On the rare occasion when me and the Mrs. play chess, she gets stomped there too for the same reason. Going further, same thing occurs when we play football/soccer. Discounting skill, both chess and football can hardly be considered unbalanced games.

    On a side note, I actually believe that the Wood Elves, in skilled hands, should be considered top tier. They are a finesse army, which means they have an extremely high ceiling in terms of competitiveness, but require an experienced general to reach it. I see nothing wrong with this, some armies are easier to play than others, which offers players a range of play styles. There are many players that would probably stomp me and my WoC with their Wood Elves. Furthermore, there are actually army matchups in which the Wood Elves fare better than the WoC (i.e. against the other Elven factions).

    I personally don't think Wood Elves are well suited for a newer or less experienced player. But in the right hands, they are downright scary!

    I haven't fielded my WoC against her in a long time, because I find the games to be less interesting. She tends to lose quite significantly against the Lizardmen too, and the Lizzies are usually considered to be a fairly well balanced mid-level army.

    As @Lizards of Renown pointed out earlier, fielding the TK is a great way to help bridge the gap between players with a skill disparity. Our "best" games have come when I have played my TK. We'll see how she fares against my Chaos Dwarfs! (insert evil Dwarvian laughter)





    [​IMG]
     
  19. Killer Angel
    Slann

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

    Messages:
    14,937
    Likes Received:
    32,866
    Trophy Points:
    113
    A friend of mine with Dark Eldar... :p
     
  20. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

    Messages:
    77,500
    Likes Received:
    248,288
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I wish I could like this post TWICE.

    I think this is the best way of looking at. People have different ways they like to play, and each is valid. Some people like to be ultra-competitive, while others like a super-relaxed and casual setting. Each of these (and everything in-between) is completely legitimate. Simply seek out others of like mind and you'll have great games.
     

Share This Page