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8th Ed. Lizardmen were nerfed from the start

Discussion in 'Lizardmen & Saurian Ancients Discussion' started by BricksNotBombs, Apr 16, 2022.

  1. BricksNotBombs
    Jungle Swarm

    BricksNotBombs Member

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    Is it just me or were Lizardmen neglected in terms of stats in WFB?
    Like, Kroq-Gar for example has existed for thousands of years, fought all across the world and against every race, single-handedly defeated armies, and has a WS6 and S5, and I3. He should definitely be more skilled a fighter than an Elf hero, and certainly stronger that the run of the mill Saurus hero, and quicker to react than the average human. It doesn't make sense to me.

    Then there's temple guard, an elite Saurus unit who's sole purpose is extra wounds for Slann. Literally nothing else to them. At least give them a rule where they can use both their halberd and shield in combat or something, right?

    Gor Rok should definitely have had a 6+ Regeneration rule.

    KROXIGORS ARE ONLY TOUGHNESS 4. WTF IS THAT ABOUT?!

    Surely it's not just me who thinks Lizardmen, particularly Saurus, were given the shit end of the stat-stick in terms of stats and points cost?
     
  2. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
    Slann

    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Eleventh Spawning

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    I personally think Saurus are still solid, even in 8th. Certainly in the top 5 best Core units in the game, probably 3rd after Chaos Warriors and Ironguts, and I also like my Temple Guard and Saurus Cavalry. I always run a Saurus-focused list, because Skink Clouds are a spineless tactic for those without honour or sense of fun, and it’s fared pretty well for me much of the time. The only armies that would give me concern are Warriors of Chaos because they’re broken, Dark Elves because their elites abuse ASF to broken levels (though their basic infantry are no match for Saurus and their elites can be blown away with any form of shooting) and Ogres because they require different tactics to beat than most other forces.

    I do agree with you in part about Kroq-Gar because the Revered Spear of Tlanxla had very poor rules given to it, though to be fair its rules were rubbish in 7th as well - 8th just inherited that poor rule. In my mind Kroq-Gar should easily own Karl Franz for instance. However I think WS6 is fair given Saurus are more about brute strength and savagery than genuine skill-at-arms. Perhaps give him WS7, but no more than that. I3 means he can strike at the same time as an average human, I’m fine with that.

    Most Monstrous Infantry are Toughness 4, it’s only select defensive Monstrous Infantry that have Toughness 5 - Tree Kin have it which makes sense (being walking trees), Crypt Horrors also have it which doesn’t make sense given they’re just big fat ghouls, nothing super-tough about them in lore. Ushabti should have Toughness 5 because they’re living statues, but Kroxigors are flesh and blood like Trolls, Minotaurs, Rat Ogres and others of their ilk.

    There are other armies that are far worse off in terms of stats and points cost than Lizardmen, I know because I’m a fan of Tomb Kings and I am getting into playing Beastmen, the former certainly could do with some stats tune-ups, the latter are still stuck in their 7th Edition book where a lot of their units are too expensive for what they do, even though what they bring to the table could be considered good if they were given adequate reductions.


    Welcome to the forums by the way! Glad to see another Fantasy player join us!
     
  3. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    I think they are one of the better externally balanced armies, somewhere in the meaty middle in terms of overall power level. The game would benefit from bringing the stronger armies (WoC, DE, HE, Ogres) and weaker armies (TK, Beastmen, Brets) more in line with the Lizardmen.

    The internal balance is a lot more wonky. Lizardmen have extremely potent units like the Scar-Vet cowboy, skinks and salamanders, while at the same time having essentially worthless units like the Troglodon.

    Who else rounds out your top 5? Where do the Witch Elves fit?

    Gor-Rok and Kroak are well costed characters. Tetto'eko is extremely undercosted and every other Lizardmen character is over-costed in my opinion.
     
  4. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

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    I think Lizardmen are upper middle tier army. Good but not great.

    Other armies got a lot more love for sure (like Warriors of Chaos, Dark Elves and High Elves).
     
  5. BricksNotBombs
    Jungle Swarm

    BricksNotBombs Member

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    I hear ya, but given the rest of their stats and their points value I still think they should be perked up somewhere, and I feel like a 2-stort tall giant crocadile covered in scales like steel should really be toughness 5 to add to their staying power.


    Maybe that's it. I started in 6th Ed with Lizardmen, then Beastmen, but found WoC to consistently work for me. They are OP to fudge. I recently looked at 8th Ed DE and HE stats and they're obscene. The ASF rule on everything is just insulting.

    All the while, I still Kroq-Gar and Gor-Rok are too weak for their legends.
     
  6. Killer Angel
    Slann

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    First of all, i welcome @BricksNotBombs.
    Enjoy your stay here on Lustria. :)

    but trolls have regen to help their resilience.
     
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  7. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
    Slann

    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Eleventh Spawning

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    True, but I was explicitly referring to Toughness.

    Additionally if we're to take special rules into account, Kroxigors have Scaly Skin (4+), which may not be as good as regeneration but is better than no save at all for Rat Ogres and just a 6+ armour save for Minotaurs due to light armour (5+ if they take shields).
     
  8. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

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    @BricksNotBombs

    Welcome to Jurassic Park! You should do an introduction in that subforum! :)
     
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  9. BricksNotBombs
    Jungle Swarm

    BricksNotBombs Member

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    Thanks! :)

    Aye I'll be sure to make an introductory post! I want to get some decent photos of my current Seraphon army first though :D
     
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  10. Killer Angel
    Slann

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    absolutely true.
    it's just that to look merely at T may be misleading, as there are other factors that chime in.
     
  11. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
    Slann

    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Eleventh Spawning

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    True, but I was specifically responding to @BricksNotBombs' complaint about Kroxigors being Toughness 4:
    Because he was only discussing Toughness, I also resolved to only discuss Toughness.
     
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  12. Killer Angel
    Slann

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    Fair point, probably it's me, as i would have immediately expanded the debate.
     
  13. airjamy
    Bastiladon

    airjamy Well-Known Member

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    The only thing i really agree on is that it is weird that Krox are T4. That certainly seems too low to me, when looking at the models. Saying we were neglected while being an above average army is somewhat silly though, we had the best Skirmishers in the game in our Skinks, and some of the strongest magic in the game as well.

    Look that Brettonia player in the eye and say Lizardmen were neglected ;)
     
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  14. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

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    Or the Tomb King... :(
     
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  15. BricksNotBombs
    Jungle Swarm

    BricksNotBombs Member

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    Yeah Skinks and magic is strong, but my main focus was on Kroxigors, legendary Saurus, and Temple Guard. I want to reiterate that Kroq-Gar has fought for millenia, on every continent against every possible foe, and only has the WS of an Elf hero. Seems silly to me. And the rules for his spear are just a bit whack too, for a weapon from the Old Ones.
    Glad I'm not the only one to think T4 is subpar for Kroxigors though. How they're described in lore is 2-storey tall beasts that could take down cities, and their stats just don't reflect that.
     
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  16. Killer Angel
    Slann

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    In AoS Lord Kroak has a built-in bonus to cast that's on par on a mr. nobody elf champion of a core unit.
    and far inferior to the bonus granted to a wizard from a certain city of Sigmar.

    Internal consistency was never an option for GW.
     
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