8th Ed. The BEST close combat units in all of Warhammer.

Indeed, especially that Hammer vs. White Lion matchup. It was the perfect storm where even the smallest shift at the onset created vastly different outcomes towards the end. I have never seen it play out quite that way in a math-hammer matchup.

I'm curious to see how many of the contests will end up being victory - losses vs. massive victory - massive losses. I originally thought that more of them would be blowouts, but maybe not. Obviously it is still much to early to tell.

I love how there is no love for the snooty Elves!

The performance of the K'daai is one that I'm particularly interested in as it is a Chaos Dwarf unit. I'm curious to see how it will fare in the end. Without a doubt the Witch Elves matchup will go poorly for it, but we'll see how the other contestants do against it. The Destroyer vs. the Skullcrushers is going to be a bloodbath!! (I might save that one for last).

I'm also interested in the Beasts of Nurgle because I have no experience playing with or against them. I just heard that they are extremely good, and so far they are living up to their reputation. My guess is that 1+ armour will give them big trouble, but time will tell!




I hope the matchups have been interesting for everyone! Keep the discussions going!

 

For me, the Elves (Both High and Dark) represent OP forces and so I instinctively resent them and even (to a degree) people who play them. I don't like "games" where people are not interested in enjoying the fight or who just want to have the most OP forces just to win.

When I was choosing my armies, I specifically stayed away from anything "Top Tier" by instinct.

Plus, as any goblin will tell you, they smell funny

-

Match-ups are great @NIGHTBRINGER ! Keep them coming and thanks for doing the tedious and boring work of all the calculations.

 

The mighty NIGHTBRINGER surveys his unstoppable army, the Warriors of Chaos. It would appear that we have a new enemy lads!

Thank you! That means a lot!

As long as people are enjoying them and it is generating interest/discussion I'll keep slowly plugging away at them!

I keep telling my wife that, but she still favours her silly tree Elves!

 

Don't worry, my best friend plays WoC and we get along just fine. You also play Tomb Kings so you're evidently not a person as I have described, since they are the bottom of the power tiers (I'll get you for that GW...)

I use LO to stave off pining for Warhammer games and having constant discussions and the like is therapeutic.

I have to say, if one of my small number of friends who play WFB hadn't started collecting them already, I may have chose them as one of my armies. Mainly because of the Treemen and Great Eagles (nod to LOTR).

 

Fair enough. My armies come in at a wide range of power levels

• Warriors of Chaos (top tier)
• Chaos Dwarfs and Lizardmen (middle tier)
• Tomb Kings (bottom tier)

Well come move to Canada and we can play some games! I even have a dedicated full size 6'x4' Warhammer table and a few pieces of custom terrain in my gaming room! (You'll have to put up with a few, some , a whole bunch of grey models though... because how often do you ever hear of me painting!?)

They are good looking army, lending themselves nicely to spring, summer, fall and winter painting schemes!

 

Who're the next contenders Nightbringer?

 

Black Guard vs. my personal betting favourite to win the whole tournament!

I'll have it up soon, I just have to check over the calculations!

 

Game time! Skullcrushers of Khorne vs. Black Guard of Naggarond.



Not much of a post matchup analysis is required here. I suppose we can sum it up with: don't bring strength 4 against Skullcrushers' armour save of 1+. It was a massacre. The Black Guard had lots of low strength attacks that hit very reliably and wounded fairly reliably but did very little against the armour of the Skullcrushers. The Black Guard had little in the way of defense. On the other hand, the Skullcrushers demonstrated their elite level offense and defense. In the end, the Black Guard are all dead and the Skullcrushers have 4 out of 5 models still standing. Tough matchup for the Dark Elves.

And with that we update the table:




Most importantly... Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!!

 

Foregone conclusion here.

Unfortunately, like you say, 1+ armour save is deadly and especially combined with their attack output.

I'm thinking about how they will match up with mournfang cavalry. How are you dealing with impact hits in the calcutions?

Otherwise, they will have S6 attacks (and S5 for the mournfangs) so will make a difference to the armour saves...

 

As per the rules of the experiment, all combats are treated as ongoing. It's too complicated to try to assume who got the charge, so neither side gets the charge. Getting the charge relies on many external factors such as player skill, chaff presence, chaff removal, movement speed + swiftstride, other units, magic, etc.

So for the experiment the Mournfang Cavalry don't get their impact hits, just like the Juggernauts don't get their +1 bonus to their strength on the turn in which they charge. First-turn specific rules that are not charge dependent (i.e. hatred, Savage Orc's Choppa's rule) are in effect because they would go off no matter which side got the charge.

Since everyone voted for the Ogres to have the defensive setup of Ironfists over GW weapons, the Ogres will only be S4, but they will have a 2+ armour save.

 

Right. It's true.

 

@NIGHTBRINGER before this goes any further, do you want to have a gentleman's bet on for who wins?

i.e. Who do you think will come out on top?

My bet is still with the Mark of Nurgle Warriors of Chaos.

 

Sounds like fun! I'm game.

My bet is on the Skullcrushers. Who are you picking?

Anyone else want in on this before we progress much further? The "bet" is just for fun though!

 

Something I like to lean in on, for the sake of the game I will pick one that not yet have been chosen: Witch Elves.
No reasoning there, just 'randomly' picking a unit

Grrr, Imrahil

 

Sorry, edited post just as you were posting.

I think the WoC with Mark of Nurgle will end up winning. Rank bonus, -1 to hit, halberds, etc. I think even if they don't win they will be in top three.

 

I like reading in to the math-hammer you put out here. The one thing I find hard to do is translate the number of wounds to the number of models in the fighting unit. This gives me a better view to where the amount of attacks is coming from.

for instance: the Skullcrushers are said to be a unit 5 models wide but you list the attack as "(4 remaining)" in the first attack sequence as well, are there 4 models in this unit?
But 15 wounds for 4 models does not make sense, so I guess there are 5 models...

(I see that for the output of the battle it is important to use the total number of wounds)

Grrr, Imrahil

 

Oh and who will come in LAST?

(oooooooooooooooh......)

My best on coming in last is the Black Guard.

 

That wounds remaining column is something new I added in for the second matchup of our experiment (which was that razor close one between the White Lions and the Hammers). The reasoning was to keep track of fractions of wounds, which is something that is especially important in the case of big monsters with few but expensive wounds.

For instance let's say that the K'daai Destroyer was fighting in some fictional matchup. Let's assume that the opponent didn't do very well and only did 0.4 wounds to it mathematically. The Destroyer has 6 wounds minus 0.4 wound which equals 5.6 wounds. If I didn't keep track of decimal places, this would be rounded up to 6. Next round would be the same. All the damage would be lost to rounding errors (and the opposite can also occur).

The chart has definitely become significantly more complicated to accommodate this experiment, let me see if I can clarify it. The "Wounds remaining" column (second column from the left) represents the total number of wounds that the unit has at the start of that round of combat. So in round one, the Skullcrushers start with 15 wounds (5 models x 3 wounds per model). Since the Black Guard have the ASF special rule, they get to attack before the Skullcrushers do. In our matchup, the Black Guard were able to do 2.6 unsaved wounds to the Skullcrushers. You'll see the effect of this in the "Wounds remaining" column in the second round combat where the Skullcrushers are listed as having 12.4 wounds remaining (15 - 2.6 = 12.4).



So that is how the wound tracking from round to round works. However, still in the first round, after the Black Guard have inflicted 2.6 wounds to the Skullcrushers, the Skullcrushers still have to perform their attacks. For the purposes of figuring out how many attacks they have, I need to know how many models are alive to attack. In this case, I can't use fractions of a wound. So the 2.6 wounds the Black Guard inflicted is rounded up to 3 wounds. 3 wounds equals one dead Skullcrusher, so only 4 of them get to make their attacks, which is why you see "4 remaining) next to the their name. Technically I should have wrote it next to the stomp as well (that is my blunder ). So when ever you see "x remaining" next to an attack entry, that means that models have died during this combat phase before they could strike, resulting in few attacks generated. I usually only list it if the casualties changed the number of models that get to attack back. So if casualties are taken from a rank that wouldn't have gotten to attack anyways, I wouldn't list how many models are left, because all the active ranks (front rank plus supporting ranks) get their full attacks anyways.

Unfortunately this will get even more complicated in cases where models have multiple sets of attacks at different points in the close combat phase (for instance normal attacks which are struck at initiative order and a stomp/thunderstomp which is performed at the end of the round). The K'daai Destroyer for example has three sets of attacks, each at different points in the combat:

• blazing body (start of the round, even before ASF)
• regular attacks (at initiative 5)
• thunderstomp (at the end of the close combat round)

It could theoretically be killed at some point between these rounds, which would mean that it couldn't attempt the subsequent set(s) of attacks.


Let me know if my long-winded explanation has cleared things up (sorry for the poor penmanship, it's hard for me to write on the image using the mouse) . I really want the chart to be easily readable for everyone. It's obviously hard for me to judge it, because in the processing of designing it I know how precisely how it works, but not necessarily how it comes off to others reading it. It is very much a work in progress and has been greatly expanded for this experiment compared to the plain old one I designed for personal use. I could very easily hide the "Wounds remaining" column when posting the charts on this thread (and even replace it with a models remaining column), but then every once in a while a wound or model would appear to magically disappear due to rounding that is occurring behind the scenes. So it is a case of making things look simpler, but not displaying all the information, or having it a bit more complicated, but everyone gets to see exactly what I see. If you have any suggestions for improving the chart for clarity, let me know. Your feedback is appreciated.

There are a few more complicated things that I have to account for in some of the future matchups. I'll try to explain beforehand how incorporated those special rules into the calculations. I've never tackled these issues before, but I think I have an accurate solution for them. Don't hesitate to ask for clarification or provide feedback when we come to them!

 

So I'm assuming that your excel grid has hidden calculation cells?

 

No, currently it does not. What you guys see, is what I see. Obviously there are formulas in the cells themselves, but none of the cells (rows or columns) are hidden. But I could hide some if it means that the outputted chart is easier for everyone to read.

It really is up to you guys. It's hard for me to judge because it is something akin to proof reading your own essay.

Did my earlier (long winded) explanation help clarify things?

That is who I was thinking of as well! I'm surprised to see you pick them as weren't you originally the one who suggested their inclusion in our contest (above Witch Elves and Executioners)?


So far we have:

Betting favourites to win first place:

• Skullcrushers: @NIGHTBRINGER
• Warriors of Chaos: @Lizards of Renown
• Witch Elves: @Imrahil

Betting favourites to come in last place:

• Black Guard: @Lizards of Renown , @NIGHTBRINGER