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8th Ed. The BEST close combat units in all of Warhammer.

Discussion in 'Other Armies Discussion' started by NIGHTBRINGER, Sep 27, 2020.

  1. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    It always bugged me that the tournament treated a ld7+ stubborn unit as essentially unbreakable. Some units got a consistent unfair advantage from that setup. Currently, we treated any leadership test with a chance of of 50%+ as a success. The problem was that this approach was applied to each round of combat in isolation. I think a fairer approach would have been to apply the 50% threshold across all rounds of combat, and once the accrued chance of passing the test fell below 50% the unit would be treated as broken and destroyed.

    Under the current system:
    ld9 stubborn unit loses combat in round 1: 5/6 chance to pass break test = 83.33% = pass
    ld9 stubborn unit loses combat in round 2: 5/6 chance to pass break test = 83.33% = pass
    ld9 stubborn unit loses combat in round 3: 5/6 chance to pass break test = 83.33% = pass
    ...
    and so on at infinitum

    Under the new "accrued system:
    ld9 stubborn unit loses combat in round 1: 5/6 chance to pass break test = 83.33% = pass
    ld9 stubborn unit loses combat in round 2: 5/6 * 5/6 = 69.44% = pass
    ld9 stubborn unit loses combat in round 3: 5/6 * 5/6 * 5/6 = 57.87% = pass
    ld9 stubborn unit loses combat in round 4: 5/6 * 5/6 * 5/6 * 5/6 = 48.23% = failure = assumed broken and destroyed

    So the question is reframed from what are the odds of passing this rounds break test, to what are the odds of passing all the break test you've had to make?

    It's more realistic and would have shortened some of those really long and drawn out matchups. I think some of the results would have shifted.


    An elegant system, for a more civilized age.
     
  2. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    @Lizards of Renown @Killer Angel @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl @Imrahil
    Any thoughts on the "improved" system?
     
  3. Killer Angel
    Slann

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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  4. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
    Slann

    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Eleventh Spawning

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    I do agree that is a system that makes better use of the laws of mathematics, because it's true, the probability of that Stubborn 9 unit staying in combat would decrease every turn it remains in the melee because the owning player would have to attempt the same Leadership test again and again, and sooner or later they will fail, as opposed to the current system where any unit with Stubborn 7 or above is essentially treated in the same way as an Unbreakable unit (and indeed has an advantage over Unbreakable units that also have Unstable).

    Fortunately the only unit in my Monstrous Infantry contest that will need to heed this is the Maneaters, and they currently haven't lost a combat, so I won't need to ream through my progress so far and change anything. However, I must certainly make a mental note to introduce this rule if they ever do.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2022
  5. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

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    I think that's fairer for sure. Stubborn is really good, but not infallible. By turn 4 of a combat, even a Leadership 9 Stubborn troop has a chance for failure and I think that's accurate (unless you're Cold Blooded ;) )
     
  6. Imrahil
    Slann

    Imrahil Thirtheenth Spawning

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    I agree with the new system, it is mathematicaly closer to reality.
    To make it a bit more clear for me: leadership test is the roll of 1 d6, combined with the ld stat to exceed a certain value?

    Grrr, Imrahil
     
  7. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

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    Leadership ranges from 1 to 10 and you take the test on 2D6. You want to get equal to or lower than the Leadership score.

    In Close Combat, you add up the unsaved wounds caused by either side (plus other bonuses, like who has a Standard Bearer, who has ranks of troops, etc.). Whoever has the highest score wins. You then take a leadership test with the modifier being the difference in your scores. For example, if you got 12 and your opponent got 9, then you won by 3 points. Your opponent then takes a Leadership test on 2D6 with -3 to his Leadership.

    Other rules can affect this. Stubborn, for instance, means that you never have to take a minus modifier on your Leadership test, to represent the troops being hardened and able to mostly ignore pressure from losses.
     
  8. Imrahil
    Slann

    Imrahil Thirtheenth Spawning

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    Thanks for clarifying!

    One question though, is the reduced ld due to unsaved wounds permanently or just for that round of combat?

    So for the mathematician in me: if a ld9 unit lost by 2 the 5/6 will become a 7/12.
    If in the next round no unsaved wounds occure will it then be 7/12*5/6 or 7/12*7/12?

    Grrr, Imrahil
     
  9. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

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    You calculate it after each round. It's not permanent. Your next round could be getting hammered by your opponent and then needing to do a Leadership test on -4 yourself.
     
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  10. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    The combat result (and the resulting modified leadership) is determined by combat resolution. Unsaved wounds make up only one part of the combat resolution, which is determined by:
    • +1 for each unsaved wound inflicted
    • +1 for charging
    • +1 for each extra rank of at least 5 models (3 models for monstrous units) up to a maximum of +3
    • +1 standard bearer
    • +1 flank attack
    • +2 rear attack
    • +1 for charging from the high ground (insert Obi-Wan joke here), this is in addition to the normal +1 for simply charging
    • +1 battle standard bearer
    • +1 for overkill wounds in a challenge, up to a maximum of 5+

    You add up all of these for each side and the difference between the two totals determines the winner of the combat (and how much the subsequent break test is modified by). Note, it is possible to inflict less wounds than your opponent and still win combat.
     
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