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8th Ed. The Legendary Warriors of Chaos "Unkillable" Hortennse Lord.

Discussion in 'Other Armies Discussion' started by NIGHTBRINGER, Sep 11, 2022.

  1. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
    Slann

    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Eleventh Spawning

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    Er, Bretonnia doesn't have Cannons, and Damsels only use Life, Beasts and Heavens. I forget what the Fay Enchantress can use.

    As per Skaven in a previous thread, it sounds like you've become ensnared by a Matthias Eliasson book.
     
  2. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

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    Hmmmm... Thought I purged all that... And I did on my rulebooks, but still had the data rocking around in my noggin! Edited Bret's.
     
  3. Tk'ya'pyk
    Skar-Veteran

    Tk'ya'pyk Well-Known Member

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    Hmm

    Well, Bretonnia did have the trebuchet. Getting a direct hit with one is tricky, but possible I suppose?

    Dark and High Elves could also just spam repeater bolt throwers and try to nail him as often as possible I suppose?

    I still say the best tactic is to just ignore him. It doesn't matter if he's running around when the entire rest of his army is falling apart around him. Kind of like Grimgor against Crom - he fought Crom to a standstill for a moral victory, but while he was doing that, Crom's army routed Grimgor's army, leaving him on the field alone.

    The second best tactic I can think of is to tie him up in melee, locking him in place. Chaos Warriors with shields, dwarf Ironbreakers, that sort of thing. Ironically, a Dark Elf army has a simple tactic for this - unit of Bleakswords. Last I checked, they had a 4+ save in melee. Won't last long if the Hortensse has a great weapon, but if he does not, they'll slow him down at least a little.
     
  4. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    I agree, those look to be generally the best strategies, but even so I think the Beastmen will have a very hard time of it. I'll play the part of the WoC DP player and analyze the strength/weakness of each one...

    These guys aren't bad. They definitely wouldn't be the first target I'd fly my DP into. There are many more softer targets that I would choose to attack with the DP. As the WoC player, I'd be motivated to get some of my other units into these guys instead. Trolls (with supported leadership) would make pretty short work of them. Skullcrushers would also have a field day with their limited defenses, although they would take some damage in return.

    Anyways, assuming all goes wrong and the DP is stuck in with these guys, you're right to keep your general nearby. With only a base leadership of 7, the Allure of Slaanesh gift would cut away a large number of attacking models right off the bat. If I happen to get Phantasmagoria off on them, the reverse cold-blooded leadership tests would go even further in protecting my DP. The one real disadvantage that the beasties have is that they are only WS4, which means that they will be hitting my DP on 5's. That's two thirds of the attacks (which get past the Allure of Slaanesh) that are missed right away.

    So, the minotaurs will be hitting on 5's, wounding on 2's and I get a 5+ followed by a 5++. That means that each Minotaur attack has a 12% chance to cause an unsaved wound (not counting the Allure of Slaanesh). With 3 guys in b2b and another 3 making supporting attacks, 18 total attacks nets the minos a very impressive 2.2 wounds. Of course it is unlikely that all of them pass their Allure of Slaanesh leadership test, so if one fails their wound output falls to 1.85 and if you're unlucky and two fail, then they go down to 1.48.

    In return, the DP will be hitting on 2's, wounding on 2's and the Minos get no saves. That means that each DP attack has a 69% to cause an unsaved wound. With his 5 attacks the DP averages 3.47 wounds (and another 3.5 wounds on the turn I unleash this breath weapon, assuming I still have it.). The DP then has a fair chance to heal a wound.

    It looks to be a winning strategy if everything goes right for the Minotaurs...
    • they are able to engage the DP in CC
    • they are in range of the general (without this, it's a bit of a longshot)
    • the DP does not cast Phantasmagoria on them
    • they pass their break test after losing the first round of combat
    • the DP is in not in their flank or rear
    • the DP does not have backup, especially backup that denies them steadfast
    • the minos have sufficient numbers to soak up the casualties the DP causes (as he does hit first)
    If those things line up, then they should eventually win the war of attrition. Overall its a matchup that I would work to avoid unless I was desperate or could introduce one or more of the elements I discussed above.

    Mindrazor can always turn the tide of a battle. I actually don't think that the Ghorgon is the ideal target for it. He only has 6 attacks (7 if he still has his Frenzy), and needs 5's to hit, 2's to wound and the DP gets his 5++. That means he averages 1.3 wounds a turn (1.1 if he has already lost Frenzy). The problem is that the DP should kill him in three turns, meaning the Gorghon has to get the job done in two turn (because the DP strikes first and kills him on the third turn).

    Assuming he passes his Allure of Slaanesh tests (which he most definitely should with ld 10), there are still three things working against him...
    1. The DP should heal a wound over the course of those 3 rounds of combat
    2. You are likely going to be the one who takes the charge, so you its likely that you won't have Mindrazor in the first round of combat. And then you have to make sure you are able to get it through in the subsequent friendly turn.
    3. He'll likely lose his Frenzy after the first round of combat
    I actually think that a large unit of Gor Heard would likely be a better target. They'll collectively put out more attacks but more importantly they can soak up the wounds and stay in the fight (assuming your General is nearby with his leadership). They are also core and might get hatred in the first round of CC.

    The Caress of Laniph is not that much of a threat with average rolls. You get 2d6 hits minus enemy strength. On average that nets you 7-6=1. One hit that will then wound on 4+ and the DP still gets his 5++. That works out to an average of 0.33 wounds per cast.

    The Fate of Bjuna will produce better numbers, but will be severely hampered by its short range of just 12". You also need to have the DP in your front arc and of course the DP can't be engaged in CC. That's quite the tight situational setup against a flying enemy. And if all that does line up, and you get the spell off, you'll average 2 hits (2d6 hits - T5). That works out to 1.1 unsaved wounds (2's to wound and the DP has a 5++). Also at that point the wizard is in the DP guaranteed charge range.

    These are all very solid spells to cast. The right spell into the right combat can really make a big difference. Speaking of which, the Beastmen (if they decide to invest in magic) are the only army that can consistently put out a more dominant magic phase than the TK.

    I disagree with this point. As a WoC player I'd much rather have my DP face the Beastmen than the O&G. The O&G can put out a pretty substantial gunline if they wish to. I had a friend that would field 8 Spear Chukkas in a 3000 point game. While each Spear Chukka is pretty unreliable, I sure as hell don't want my DP pin cushioned by eight of them.

    The O&G also have trolls, which if leadership babysat, are very problematic as I've never seen a WoC player put flaming attacks on their DP. The trolls with their vomit can auto hit and completely negate the DP's armour. They're also cheap and have regen. I would not want my DP engaged with them. Assuming they have the general's leadership nearby, they are a far worse matchup than the Minotaurs. The DP will lose that war of attrition in very short order.
     
  5. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    The Chaos Sorcerer Lord can also be protected in a unit (or "Hortennsed" himself if you don't mind being restricted to the Lore of Metal or the awful Lore of Tzeentch).

    The DP works very well with a pair of Chimeras in the list. Mind you that a flying Hortennse likes that setup too.

    The infamous WoC flying circus.

    I think a big factor as to which is better will come down to the opposing army. Against a gunline, Hortennse is likely to come out on top. But how many armies can field cannons (by which I mean real cannons, not things like Hellcannons or Magma Cannons)?
    • Dwarfs
    • Empire
    • Ogres
    • Daemons of Chaos (but these are flaming, so the DP gets a 2++)
    Anyone else?

    Skaven and O&G can have effective gunlines, and the Dark/High Elves have their bolt throwers.
     
  6. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    I had to reply to the earlier posts of @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl and @Killer Angel . It's getting kind of late, so I'll have to get to this tomorrow, because it really deserves a good deal of my time and attention.
     
  7. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

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    :D
     
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  8. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

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  9. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    Lots of good stuff here @Lizards of Renown ! :) It was a fun read with lots of useful insights.



    Hey... don't be using my beloved Slaanesh spells against me! :) Random Movement D6 would really stop Hortennse in his tracks. And the lore has two of those spells in its ranks.

    I think you can add Beasts of Nurgle to the mix. They will most definitely bog him down. While they have essentially zero chance of killing him, it will take forever for him to wade through their impressive defense. DoN, 4 wounds a piece and regen for a very attractive points cost... you can't go wrong.

    Bloodletters have Killing Blow, so they are another potential counter. Admittedly a hard task to set up that CC, but another counter to consider.

    A big gamble. You better be sure that Hortennse does not have a magic weapon of some sort.

    Hortennse is going straight for the Gutstar. Tying up the Gutstar (which poses a huge threat to the Chaos line) is his primary mission. Hortennse is a hard counter to the Ogre's best build.

    The Ironblaster is probably the premier cannon in the entire game of Warhammer.

    The giant is unreliable, but oddly it has a chance of working out. What an ignominious way for Hortennse to go down. What a gaming moment and story that would be. The unkillable Chaos Lord Hortennse stuffed down the trousers of a giant.

    Bogging down Hortennse with a large cheap unit would be an excellent tactic when the battlefield position allows for it. Leadership supported trolls would also do the job.

    I have to disagree on the point about the Sisters of Twilight. While I agree that he would have to get extremely favourable dice rolls to kill them both in in a single turn, he is virtually assured to win every round of combat. He'll put through 2-3 wounds consistently and they will do nothing in return. They are not stubborn and bring no static combat resolution to the fight. Even at a base leadership of 9, they will break from combat pretty soon and the 275 victory points they concede will largely pay for Hortennse.

    That's an interesting fight. But does the Vampire player want to put their most valuable piece into a head-to-head matchup with Hortennse? The build you describe will cost significantly more than Hortennse and the Vampire lvl 4 general is much more important to his army than Hortennse is to his.

    It's a solid build, and the leadership test is definitely problematic. The risky part for the Vampire is if Hortennse manages to slip 2 wounds past in a good round of combat and the Vampire fails to do any wounds himself, because he would then crumble to death. Or in the case of a Hortennse charge, Hortennse would only have to slip one wound past the Vampire Lord (1 wound + charge + 2 crumble = 4 wounds).

    It also means that the Vampire counts must abandon their traditional Blender lord in order to build an anti-Hortennse build. That is already a win in favour of the WoC.

    It would be fun to see who would come out on top more often. The Vampire lord would be completely reliant on his 4+ ward save to keep him alive (as the 3+ armour save would be nullified by Hortennse's GW S7 attacks). The Nightshroud looks to be a good item to fit into the build to offset this.

    The other thing to consider is that while they are tied up in combat, if the WoC player should ever get the chance to bring static combat resolution into the mix, the Vampire Lord is finished.

    A risky strategy. I'd have to do a deeper dive to see if I could come up with a Vampire Lord that has a statistical advantage over Hortennse. Is it a good strategy to try to out Hortennse Hortennse? To beat him at his own game?
     
  10. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

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    Awesome! I'll digest yours.
     
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  11. BrotherSutek
    Ripperdactil

    BrotherSutek Well-Known Member

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    Don't give away my strategy! Amusingly enough one of my last games was against WoC/DoC with my Wood Elves. With my love of the Sethayla style of play I was mostly Glade Riders, Warhawks, Eagles and Waywatchers. I easily outmanuevered them and only their Flamers and magic was a threat. The giant Deathstar was a minor worry and I was able to keep control of their movement. My buddy who was playing forest spirits was mostly mulched, pun intended, as he could beat some units but wasn't able to set up combats as well as he needed. Fun game but if we had to deal with Hortensse it would have been tougher depending on the build and if they were using the flying then we'd have had to feed him cheap units to redirect they fury. Tough to earn those points back if you don't see combat.
     
  12. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    For many armies, this might be the best (or most viable) tactic. Why dump a large percentage of your resources into killing a 350-400pts character, when the same resources might be able to snag you 800 points elsewhere?

    Another sound tactic. Obviously harder to pull off than the one mentioned above, but a better option if you can accomplish it. In this case you feed him something much less valuable or something he won't be able to cut through... as opposed to him picking choice targets. Obviously if he is flying around, this is easier said then done.

    As for what to feed him, I'd go with either really cheap large units (Skaven slaves, zombies, skeletons, goblins, etc.) or something with extremely formidable defense that is not reliant on armour saves (Beasts of Nurgle, Trolls, etc.).

    One of the "weaknesses" of Hortennse is that although he has arguably the best defense in the game, his offense is only good. He isn't going to cut through a unit as efficiently as something like a Vampire Blender Lord or a K'daai Destroyer would.
     
  13. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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  14. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    [​IMG]

    It's a team game. Everyone's contributions are greatly valued!
     
  15. Imrahil
    Slann

    Imrahil Thirtheenth Spawning

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    As said elsewhere I do read along with this thread :p

    I really like this tactic for its absurdity.

    Is there a way of slowing down the Hortennse via magic or something else (available by Orcs & Goblins) so that the catch up and match up might be easier?

    Grrr, Imrahil
     
  16. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

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    :D

    Oh absolutely, which is why I invited the rest of the Knights of Eight at the beginning of the thread!

    It just hit me that the phrase "happy as a pig in ...." was very appropriate for you on this one!
     
  17. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

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    Okay, so I had a good chew on this last night.

    For me, even though the Daemon Prince loadout is pretty awesome. Two is going to trump one.

    The unkillable lord is flying around doing this thing and the Chaos Sorcerer Lord is running around doing his. The Sorceror keeps out of combat so that the 5 spells can be used to maximum effectiveness.

    The Daemon Prince's magic usage is obviously hampered in combat as it's only down to hexes and augment spells at this point.

    I would want to have two large threats that my opponent has to split his attention on, rather than one big one which is then easier to muster resources against.
     
  18. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    upload_2022-9-16_10-47-30.jpeg

    Welcome to the party! :)

    The closest thing I saw was the spell Ichy Nuisance which reduces the targets movement and initiative by D6. I'm not sure how this interacts with the fly special rule though. Reducing the target's movement characteristic on its profile would not affect it's Fly special rule. The spell does detail how to handle random movers, but not flyers.

    Either way it won't be an easy task, and even it one pulls it off, the likeliest outcome is still the giant dying to Hortennse. But there is always the chance...
     
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  19. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    Actually only Magic Missiles are prohibited from being cast when the casting wizard is in combat. The Lore of Slaanesh only has one such spell, Slicing Shards. Direct damage spells can still be cast at another unengaged target as long as it is within range and in the wizard's front arc. Magical Vortexes (like Plague Wind or Purple Sun) don't actually target anybody, so they can be cast directly through the unit that the wizard is engaged with.

    In the case of the Lore of Slaanesh, the 4 best spells of the lore are augments/hexes, and the lore attribute works best when the wizard is locked in combat.

    That is a good point, although to be fair, the Sorcerer Lord + Hortennse combo does cost nearly 200 points more. For a few extra points you could set up a nasty Exalted Hero or a unit of Skullcrushers with the differential.

    Of course, there is no way of getting around the fact that the DP is an "all your eggs in one basket approach". If he falls, it really hurts. It's also obviously much harder to kill the two separate targets, especially when the Sorcerer Lord actively tries to avoid danger and Hortennse is nearly unkillable.
     
  20. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

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    It's a viable delay tactic for sure as the spells are low points cost so if you're lucky you could keep it up for most of the game.

    True. Hadn't thought of those. Obviously they have practically zero chance of doing anything to him and it's gonna be difficult for them to catch him.

    I did think about this one. The Killing Blow point for me is a bit moot. I have to roll a six to wound, which is statistically not a great ratio, and then I still have the Ward Save. I don't see the Bloodletters surviving long enough to do anything as they will rapidly lose out on rank bonuses and then the Hortennse will easily do 3 wounds a turn and we start also adding Unstable penalties to it. I guess as a delay tactic?

    True.

    Also true, OK general is going to be very worried about this build. Aside from the cannons I don't think there is an option. Their only saving grace is that the majority of their troops are minimum M6. Doesn't help a gutstar though...

    I would love to try it. Really, really. Honestly O&Gs are a fantastically random army to play but so many fun units.

    Oh yeah! Good point!
    I concede this. This is probably the main thing I like about the 8th Edition discussions on the forum, I find my understanding deepens and I see more tactics and aspects of the game that I didn't before.

    All good points. Risky yes.

    Actually, you could leave him as a Level 1 wizard and have a separate Necromancer Level 4. You could still wait until the end of the magic phase (when all dispel dice finished) and get off a cheap spell to get a wound back. Or have the Necronmancer be within 12".


    I believe this would bring the points value to about the same.

    I believe that the tooled up Vampire Lord is the best potential threat to the Hortennse that I've found so far.
     

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