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AoS Theorycrafting Balance Changes

Discussion in 'Seraphon Discussion' started by cyberhawk94, Dec 23, 2021.

  1. Canas
    Slann

    Canas Ninth Spawning

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    Pretty much. There's basicly always a better option to bring.
    Especially in an army like ours were we have specialists for every single role you can think of and then some. It's not like we're starving for options to fullfill any particular role and need to rely on a generalist to plug the holes.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2022
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  2. Kilvakar
    Carnasaur

    Kilvakar Well-Known Member

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    What do you think about the changes I posted? Would that make them specialized enough to be worth taking over other units?
     
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  3. Canas
    Slann

    Canas Ninth Spawning

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    It's better in so much that it gives it the stats necesary to be a decent beatstick.

    However, I fear that simply being a decent straightforward 270 point beatstick might not be enough of a specialization. Like @Putzfrau has said, we don't exactly lack damage-dealers. And at 270 points it's not yet like it's going to be so powerfull that none of our stuff can keep up with it.

    I'd pick one of the following four options.

    1. An absurd amounts of stats, resulting in one of those 400 point monsters. This is the most boring option by far, but at least it's effective.
    2. Lean into the fact that the scar-vet/oldblood are master tacticians, give them multiple supporting abilities for nearby saurus (or just seraphon in general). Preferably auras like how a stegadon has steadfast majesty to bolster nearby skinks. In exchange take away pinned down & blood frenzy. This would also fit with their current generalist stat-line.
    3. Specialize it in fighting in a specific scenario, and properly commit to it don't limit it to just a single +1 to hit (do make sure it doesn't end up useless outside it's specialization though, something like Kroak who can only fight hordes cuz he has no minimum attacks is just silly...); this can be against specific targets but it can also be in specific scenarios (e.g. a bonus while taking objectives cuz it's a giant territorial apex-predator). Preferably with something more exciting than a simple +1 to hit or something. Also, preferably not another anti-horde option, we already have like 5 different options to shred hordes anyway.
    4. Special utility rules fluffed around it being a giant territorial apex-predator ridden by a slightly smaller territorial bio-engineered, magically improved, apex-predator. For example; allow it to issue challenges that force an opponent to move towards it. Or force nearby enemies to take unpreventable battleshocks cuz it's so scary.
    Personally I'd lean into the tactician option or the fluffy utility options. They don't require a big change in terms of raw stats, but do give it a nice distinct niche. Plus both have the potential benefit of providing a much needed boost to saurus in general.
     
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  4. Dread Saurian
    Stegadon

    Dread Saurian Well-Known Member

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    So what if the troglodon had the magmadroths breath attack?
     
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  5. Erta Wanderer
    OldBlood

    Erta Wanderer Well-Known Member

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    hmmm. no still to expensive but he has a roll now.
     
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  6. Kilvakar
    Carnasaur

    Kilvakar Well-Known Member

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    I would personally put him in the 300s. I'm sorry if I came off as wanting him to be a 400-500 point mega-monster like Gordrakk, I definitely don't. But I think those stats are enough of a buff that when combined with what we can do to boost it would make the Oldblood one of the best damage-dealers in our army, while the Scar-Vet would still be one you take if you still want decent damage but a cheaper unit.

    If we lose most of those buffs, even bigger stat boosts might be necessary. I would rather not have Carnosaurs as buff engines, but the fluffy options you mentioned sound cool and would be fun to use.

    Another unit that everyone wishes we could use but don't because it sucks is the Troglodon. He suffers from the "mediocre jack of all trades" problem even worse than the Carnosaurs. If I were writing his rules, I'd focus on buffing his support and ranged abilities. He already has the makings of a good monster/wizard, he just needs a little boost to get there. Here's what I'd do:

    - Give Noxious Spittle 6-8 attacks and rend -1
    - Change Venomous Jaws to 3s to hit and rend -1
    - Give him a second spell cast
    - Give him a support buff of some kind. I'd personally go with a unique spell that applies poison to one Seraphon unit's weapons. Somewhat high casting value, probably 7 or 8. Either make it increase base damage by 1 or deal the weapon's damage value in mortal wounds on 6s to hit and the attack sequence ends. This should be stated not to stack with any other abilities that give mortals on hit rolls, so no cursing for even more damage.

    That's really all I'd do. I think he'd be worth it at his current point cost but I could see them going up to 300 points since he now has the extra cast and a good spell.

    For what is probably the worst unit in the army right now, the poor Ripperdactyls, I'd try and make them a real glass cannon unit. Something that will deal reliable damage but won't last too long in combat.

    - 14" movement
    - Change Tearing Jaws to 6 attacks, 3s and 3s, -1 rend
    - Blot Toad is a marker that you place at the end of the charge phase. It grants a bubble (not sure how big) where Ripper attacks on unit in the AOE either get the re-rolls or extra rend. It stays in place for the rest of the battle
    - Mortal wounds on the charge

    I'd give the Ripper Chief:

    - Same jaw attack profile as the Rippers
    - Add a once-per battle ability to redeploy the Blot Toad
    - Make Ripperdactyls and Terradons battleline if he's the general

    For Razordons, I'd like to keep them separate from the Salamanders. Sallies are best at killing elite targets, so Razordons could be made into an anti-horde unit that also serves as a charge-deterrent.

    - 12 attacks and rend -1 on the Spike Volley
    - Instinctive Defense goes to 6 attacks, still half the original value. But it now has rend -2 within 6", making it a pretty nasty unit to charge. Wounding on 4s balances out the high rend and volume of attacks.

    I think this would make Razordons worth taking over Salamanders, especially in Coalesced, as elite screens and "bodyguards" for key units. They'd also be a good choice for adding extra range to lists who just want more dakka rather than surgical Salamander strikes. I think 110-120 points might be a good starting point? But again, I'm really just guessing with point values so if that sounds way too high or low please say so!
     
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  7. Canas
    Slann

    Canas Ninth Spawning

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    Honestly the troglodon is fairly simple to fix.
    It's current design already has a clear niche, it's just not very good at it due to being unreliable and due to the conflicting spells with the Slann & it's too expensive.
    All you need to do start making it interesting is:
    1. Reduce it's cost significantly.
    2. Give it a second personal spell it can cast when a Slann is around, doesn't even necessarily need a 2nd cast, just a decent 2nd unique spell so he's actually got a spell to cast.
    3. Rework poison spittle & drawn to the screams into something more reliable. Either by making it a mortal wound attack like the stormdrakes & dracoths have. Or by just making it a fixed number of attacks and giving it a decent chunk of rend.
    4. Move some stats around on his melee attacks to make him more a tad reliable but not necesarly more powerfull, e.g. diviners rod goes down to 1 damage, in exchange his other attacks get -1 rend. This last one is low priority though.
    That should be a decent start to get it going and we if this is still not enough we can always look into giving it more.

    Rippers I mostly agree with, but I'd just roll the bloat toad into the permanent attack buffs. Having a limited use ability on a cheap fodder unit is just kinda weird as it can never be good. Also, I'd say give them a minor defense buff, like -1 to hit against ranged attacks, to ensure they actually make it into combat.

    The chief needs some major defensive buffs, it's far too exposed to be usefull at 5 wounds & a 5+ save & a better CA since the current one will lose a lot of value with the proposed changes to the rippers.

    Razors I agree. Just making them have a reliable number of attacks should do a lot for them
     
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  8. NecridHydra
    Temple Guard

    NecridHydra Well-Known Member

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    The problem with Carno and our amy in general is that you have to spend half of an army or several buff so they can do anything at shooting or melee. Yes, Carno can do a fuck ton of damage, I don't doubt that, but you're spending a spell (that can miscast, dispelled or fail), an ability so another unit isn't benefitting from it, a CA and two once per game buffs to be able to do something. You're investing 345 points for the bad-called "400 point elite killing beatstick" you dont want him to become.

    Once the combat phase finish, you lose Finest Hour and Beastmaster abilities, and god forbid you to fail Hand of Glory and be out of range from the Serpent Staff because you charged on your turn (because of double turn or you opponent doesn't kill your Carno)

    A raw Mawkrusha is doing 11.3 damage against a 3+ save. No artefacts, no buffs, no MW from their Stomp. If you start to buff him with a couple of things (AoA, Finest Hour and Destroyer) can do 25 damage to a 3+ save; a 500 points guy with no exterior buffs (Waaaagh!, Warchanter etc) and pretty much once per game buffs.

    Our guy, in comparison, with Blade of Realities, AoA, Great Drake, Finest Hour, Beastmaster and TL Trait does 17.87. Not really bad for a glass cannon. Adding Hand of Glory and Venom, it goes up to 23.73 vs 3+ save.

    Still, we are forgetting that that's a lot of overkill (for both parts). 3+ save is becoming the norm and hordes (20+ models) are not that common nowadays. If 3+ saves are getting more common, rend 0 attacks become useless unless you add a few to it's profile. But this becomes a problem to armies who won't AoD their units or they just have bad saves.

    3rd Edit. Would be too OP that we had an Alliance ability that Celestite weapons are explosives at 6s? This would free Scar-Vet CA and make room for aura/ability buff
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2022
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  9. Erta Wanderer
    OldBlood

    Erta Wanderer Well-Known Member

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    eh not really. the only people who benefit from it would be saurus and they are the weaker side of the book. that and exploding 6s isn't all that powerful to begin with.
     
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  10. Kilvakar
    Carnasaur

    Kilvakar Well-Known Member

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    Exploding 6s on all celestite weapons would be a pretty interesting allegiance ability, for sure. I think that we'll have to get some more base allegiance abilities, either for all Seraphon or for Coalesced and Starborne, since It's a pretty safe bet that most of the Constellation abilities are going away.
     
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  11. Erta Wanderer
    OldBlood

    Erta Wanderer Well-Known Member

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    i have a sinking feeling we are going to keep cold blooded and primeval domain and thats it.
    i would like to see them rework scaly skin as a saurus specific ability +1 to save when charged or charging that sort of thing. this would alow them to make it powerful while limiting it's affect, at the moment it's having a missive impact on our dinosaurs and skink screens inflating their value but only in coalesced making it hard to balance
     
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  12. Kilvakar
    Carnasaur

    Kilvakar Well-Known Member

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    I'd rather have +1 to save universally, since there's so much shooting. Or an army-wide ward 6+ ward save. +1 to save only when charged would be a *huge* downgrade since it only works against melee attacks when you've been charged. It would do nothing against shooting, counterattacks after you charge an enemy, or if the combat lasts more than one combat phase it goes away as well.

    I know that our new book will nerf a lot of things, but so far all the 3e books have been really powerful so I have no reason to expect that we'll be treated unfairly, other than GW's typical policy of nerfing what gets used the most and making other things really strong instead.

    *Edit* We'll have a lot more to go on since we have multiple books coming out in the near future. If Idoneth, Fyreslayers, Nighthaunt and DoK all get good books that will be strong evidence that GW is at least trying to give all the factions something good.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2022
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  13. Erta Wanderer
    OldBlood

    Erta Wanderer Well-Known Member

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    hmmm what if we had key word buffs that work like the kroxigor but skinks buff saurus and saurus buff skinks?
     
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  14. Kilvakar
    Carnasaur

    Kilvakar Well-Known Member

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    What do you mean? Like a Saurus unit gets a buff for being near a Skink unit and vice versa? Because that could definitely be interesting. Right now a lot of Skinks can use buffs on Saurus units but no Saurus can buff Skinks (other than through general command abilities), so that could be quite useful.
     
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  15. Erta Wanderer
    OldBlood

    Erta Wanderer Well-Known Member

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    yes have it so that if a skink unit is within oh 8" saurus get +1 to hit or something same for skinks, dinos give every one +2 bravery. but heroes don't buff this way just units. kind of like how cathay works in the new TWW3
     
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  16. Canas
    Slann

    Canas Ninth Spawning

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    I suspect it's too unwieldy in practise, which is why it only exists on the kroxigor, I don't think there's any other unit with somehting similar.
     
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  17. Erta Wanderer
    OldBlood

    Erta Wanderer Well-Known Member

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    is it though? you just have to remove the wholly part. i almost always have a 10 man screen near my blocks and it would give your opponent a good chance to deal with your buff wagon.
     
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  18. Canas
    Slann

    Canas Ninth Spawning

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    I mostly mean balance/design wise. It's a difficult type of mechanic to make sufficiently powerfull to be interesting, while not making it frustrating cuz you end up over/underpowered if you happen to have a good/bad game.
     
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  19. Erta Wanderer
    OldBlood

    Erta Wanderer Well-Known Member

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    in what way? it already works well i just mean to expand it while dropping the part that makes it frustrating.
     
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  20. Erta Wanderer
    OldBlood

    Erta Wanderer Well-Known Member

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    our army is all about synergy between units this would still represent that while being completely internal so the game changing around us wouldn't @#$% with it. it also promotes mixed lists as the more variety you take the more powerful you are
     
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