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8th Edition Warhammer Fantasy Battles tier list!

Discussion in 'General Hobby/Tabletop Chat' started by NIGHTBRINGER, Oct 25, 2019.

  1. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    The purpose of this thread is the place all the 8th edition WFB armies into a tier list based on their power level (competitiveness as compared to other armies). The tiers are as follows:

    Top Tier - The most competitive and powerful armies in the game!
    Upper Tier - Above average
    Middle Tier - Well balanced armies. Neither too powerful or too weak
    Lower Tier - Below average
    Bottom Tier - The least competitive and weakest armies in the game!

    Note that there is no need to order the armies in terms of power within the tiers. Armies do not need to be distributed evenly between tiers.

    For reference, the complete list of WFB armies are as follows...
    • Beastmen
    • Bretonnia
    • Chaos Dwarfs
    • Daemons of Chaos
    • Dark Elves
    • Dwarfs
    • Empire
    • High Elves
    • Lizardmen
    • Ogre Kingdoms
    • Orcs & Goblins
    • Skaven
    • Tomb Kings
    • Vampire Counts
    • Warriors of Chaos
    • Wood Elves


    So to start things off, here is my list...

    Top Tier
    • High Elves
    • Dark Elves
    • Warriors of Chaos

    Upper Tier

    • Skaven
    • Ogre Kingdoms
    • Wood Elves
    • Dwarfs
    • Daemons of Chaos

    Middle Tier
    • Chaos Dwarfs
    • Empire
    • Lizardmen
    • Vampire Counts

    Lower Tier
    • Orcs & Goblins

    Bottom Tier
    • Beastmen
    • Bretonnia
    • Tomb Kings :(



    Thoughts? What does your list look like?
     
  2. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
    Slann

    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Eleventh Spawning

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    Just wondering, what ruleset are you using for Chaos Dwarfs to determine them as middle tier?

    Ogre Kingdoms I would put in top tier from personal experience, but otherwise I can't see any differences between my list and yours.
     
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  3. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    Legion of Azgorh from the FW Tamurkhan - The Throne of Chaos book. I did consider placing them in Upper Tier, but felt them to be a little weaker than standard Dwarfs. CD have some good units, but their selections are a bit limited.

    Ogres are really strong. I wouldn't have too many objections to having them in Top Tier, although I do find that the 3 armies I listed as Top Tier are a bit stronger. Ogres would likely fall around 5th place for me after Skaven. WE when used to their full potential might also land about there, however WE require a really great general to make full use of their army, while Ogres are much more straight forward.

    Also note, that Ogres are always one Purple Sun away from losing the entire battle.
     
  4. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    Where would you rank them?
     
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  5. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
    Slann

    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Eleventh Spawning

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    I’ll have to read Tamurkhan first and see :D
     
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  6. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    Hahaha... yeah... that would probably help!!

    I do love the Chaos Dwarfs. I almost picked up the beginnings of a Chaos Dwarf army a few months ago, but I have way too much stuff to paint as is.
     
  7. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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  8. Warden
    Slann

    Warden Tenth Spawning

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    huckleberry.jpg

    So coming up with a tier list was fun, I went down a big rabbit hole and found a bunch of other lists on the internet.
    Hobbylark
    DakkaDakka
    Bugman's Brewery
    Librarium Online
    IkHero Blogspot

    And found two whole Lustria Online threads on the topic from many years past!

    Lizardmen Tier (2013)
    Army Tiers 8th Ed (2011)

    It was fun to deep-dive these sources as most of them are pretty old, even the Lustria Online ones, and get a fresh perspective on what people thought were the "good" versus the "bad" and the straight up "ugly" armies out there ;)

    Here is what I found:

    warhammer 8th ed tier list.png

    I included your list @NIGHTBRINGER , as well as some other forumites to include @Spiney Norman, @Dissus, @Caprasauridae, @Asamu, and @Leokill27.

    This is my list:

    Upper (Tier 1)
    • High Elves
    • Dark Elves
    • Warriors of Chaos
    • Daemons of Chaos

    Upper-Middle (Tier 2)
    • Skaven
    • Empire
    • Dwarfs

    Middle (Tier 3)
    • Ogre Kingdoms
    • Lizardmen
    • Chaos Dwarfs
    • Vampire Counts

    Lower-Middle (Tier 4)
    • Orcs and Goblins
    • Tomb Kings
    • Wood Elves

    Bottom (Tier 5)
    • Bretonnia
    • ...
    • ...
    • ...
    • Beastmen


    My reasonings:
    - Upper: Magic can dominate, even with the changes in 8th, and Teclis if a powerhouse. There seemed to be some discussion of High Elves being mid-tier, but once you put Teclis in the list they shoot to #1. Daemons and Warriors of Chaos are always tough, especially daemons with their last army book

    - Upper Middle: This tier is biased in my opinion to those factions that can easily kill my big dino beasties with tons of powerful ranged power, and have counters to big monsters (or can bring them like skaven). Dark elves are almost in this category down from tier 1, but their initiative brings them on top.

    - Middle: Ogre Kingdoms probably should be higher, but they can get munched real good due to armor saves against a lot of the higher lists (especially tier 2). Vampire counts got their hordes in this edition but not much ranged, and chaos dwarfs are tough like the dwarfs but I am not as familiar with them. Lizardmen seem to be the all-rounders :D

    - Lower-Middle: Orcs and Goblins are fun, but mostly jack-of-all-trades, master of none :(. I consider Tomb Kings better than the lower two factions on account of their magic potential, and Wood Elves I thought got a lot of buffs when they took the army away from skirmisher-powerhouse (even though they nerfed dryads, their trees are tough in certain lists). Sadly they are the worst of the elf factions though (now that I think about it, my bias against wood elves may be from previous editions? Still seemed to be easy to counter with Lizardmen though).

    - Bottom of the Barrel: Bretonnia are one trick ponies :joyful:. Puns aside, they are easy to predict and suffer from lack-of-updated-army-book syndrome that suffers in an edition where hordes rule and cavalry drools. Grail knights are fun, so are trebuchets, but the list really needed that upgrade.

    - Actual Bottom of the Barrel: Beastmen :hurting:. Ambusher kings but not enough armor to go around, and suffer from chronic lack of ranged defense or offense of any kind. I have heard that some bestigor-heavy lists do well though, but even they struggle against Bretonnians most of the time. At least they got some new scenery in AOS... :shifty:
     
  9. Lord-Marcus
    Slann

    Lord-Marcus Sixth Spawning

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    Bretonnia should be low tier. It's not bottom of the barrel but thier tool box is short a few screwdrivers
     
  10. Paradoxical Pacifism
    Skink Chief

    Paradoxical Pacifism Well-Known Member

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    Aww shucks... poor beastmen :(

    Seems they're rather poor on the table top, and in Total War Warhammer 2, they're rather crap as well. Not even important lore-wise too I think.
     
  11. Scalenex
    Slann

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    My knowledge of overall play strength in 8th edition is far from absolute, but I always considered the Wood Elves being pretty solid after they got their new book. They had the last new book, and new books tend to have power creep. It's not a coincidence that the Tomb Kings and Orcs and Goblin had low tier armies and early books.
     
  12. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    That's an awesome post @Warden . I award you 5 top hats in recognition of your post Tiniest Top Hat.jpg Tiniest Top Hat.jpg Tiniest Top Hat.jpg Tiniest Top Hat.jpg Tiniest Top Hat.jpg and one more for the great meme response Tiniest Top Hat.jpg

    It's fun to see the armies change positions from editions to editions as new army books are released. Now that WFB is static, we can derive a more stable and unchanging ranking.

    Our lists are pretty similar.

    DoC are quite a strong army, so I can see why you would include them in the highest tier. That skullcannon is ridiculously cheap points-wise.


    Ogres are held back a bit by their susceptibility to spells like pit of shades. The ironblaster is extremely solid though and the Gutstar is legendary. They also have some of the best magic items available to any army.

    The old Wood Elves book was definitely outdated as it was from 6th edition. I never played 6th, but from what I have read, that Wood Elves book was extremely good back in the day.

    The new book was a big upgrade for 8th edition. While I agree that the Wood Elves are the weakest of the Elves factions (which isn't saying much as the other two are among the very best armies in the game), they actually have a favorable match up against either of the other two elven armies.

    Wood Elves are and have always been a finesse army. They are extremely potent but not very forgiving. In the hands of a great general they are easily among the best armies in the game, but in the hands of a lesser general they can perform very badly. The other armies are not as skill dependent as the Wood Elves in my opinion. As such, whenever this topic comes up, Wood Elves have a high degree of variance in how people rate them (more so than any other army).

    It must be said that Waywatchers and Wildriders are phenomenal units.

    I don't think magic potential differentiates TK from Beastmen. It can be argued that the Beastmen are pretty much the only other army that can match them in terms of magic potential. The Shard of the Herdstone magic item is a very easy way to generate multiple power dice. Magic aside, they are both pretty weak overall.
     
  13. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    I agree with this. I'd say armies that are close to each other on the tier list can compete very well against one another. Also, power level is also match up dependent.

    The only times you can run into some trouble is when armies from vastly different tiers are matched up against one another. For instance, Tomb Kings will have a hard time dealing with a WoC power list. However, even then, match ups do play a major factor. Orcs & Goblins match up fairly well against Warriors of Chaos despite the massive power level rating disparity between them.

    That brings up an intriguing point of investigation. Upon doing so, it would appear that it does in fact hold somewhat true. There is a definite upward trend in the data...

    upload_2019-10-27_17-16-47.png

    upload_2019-10-27_17-17-42.png

    upload_2019-10-27_17-18-2.png
     
  14. Scalenex
    Slann

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    I never played seventh as I was on a hobby hiatus then but I understand seventh edition was very pro-cavalry, if I remember what the forums said. Fifth edition was herocentric, or so I was told. I couldn't tell you what sixth edition was, magic centric maybe?

    With steadfast and horde options, the power of 8th edition is weighted towards having powerful infantry.

    Elves have always strike first as standard issue and the Warriors and Demons of Chaos have very solid base stats. If Beasts of Chaos got an 8th edition book, I bet they would be upper tier.

    After solid infantry, the second key to power is having potent magic and/or artillery. I don't know which one takes second place and which one takes third. The fourth key to power is probably big scary monsters.

    Below this in no particular order, you have monstrous infantry, mostrous cavalry, regular cavalry, and skirmishing cavalry, infantry missile fire, chariots, army specific gimmicks, and skirmishers. Monstrous Cavalry, I wish more armies had it.

    Swarms are garabage in every army that has them. Lizardmen actually had the best swarm in all of 8th edition and it was still a joke.

    Elves have the core requirement of solid infantry. They have excellent monsters, the second best magic in the game below Lizardmen, and the High Elves and Dark Elves have passable artillery. Wood Elves don't have any artillery and their monsters aren't as good as the other two Elves. They have the best infantry shooting in the game for what that's worth.

    Warriors of Chaos might have the best monsters. Their artillery is adequate. Their magic, with the rights marks is above average. They have above average gimmicks. They have negigible shooting. Who cares?

    Demons of Chaos have adequate infantry, the best gimmicks, above average magic, above average artillery, negigilble shooting, adequate monsters.

    I'm not going through all of them...

    In my perfect world, 8.5 would adjust the points every year or two. If an unit is overpowered or underpowered, change the points cost. Jungle swarms are sucky at 35 points, but would they be sucky at 10 points a base? Probably not. Every army needs some points modifications.

    Lizardmen: Lizardmen should get a monstrous infantry option and a minor artillery option. Just a bolt thrower like what the goblins have.

    Empire: Empire needs a monster that they can take that isn't ridden by a lord.

    Orcs and Goblins: They need more magical options. They should have a mostrous cavarly option.

    Tomb Kings: Lets their chariots march.

    Vampire Counts: Give them a minor artillery piece

    OR, just make the stuff in Nagash standard, if you mix and match VC and TK they are pretty solid. In my opinion, Nagash is the only End Times book with any good crunch in it.



    Brettonians: They need a monstrous cavalry option, maybe two. They need more army gimmicks.

    Dwarves: Dwarves need a monster (which might be a steam powered robot) and/or chariot option.

    Ogre Kingdoms: The Hobgoblins need to be better so players actually consider taking them. More magic options.

    Beasts of Chaos: Warriors and Demons of Chaos became a lot more like each other in 8th edition. I don't know how an updated Beasts of Chaos army would be anything other than a slightly different flavor of Chaos, I guess the three elf armies are pretty similar.
     
  15. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    That's what I heard about 5th and 7th as well. I'm not quite sure, but I've read that 6th was quite well balanced in terms of army power levels. I've never played it myself though. I know it remains one of the more popular editions of Oldhammer. 7th had massive power imbalances.

    Partially. Monstrous Cavalry can easily hold its own and I'd go as far as saying that heavy Monstrous Cavalry might just be the best troop type. Monstrous infantry works well too. Classic cavalry did suffer a bit, but still has a place in some armies.

    Obviously, chaff and skirmishers perform a very vital role as well.

    YUP!

    It is somewhat rare. As far as non-character units go, I can think off...
    • Skullcrushers (WoC)
    • Necropolis Knights (TK)
    • Demigryph Knights (Empire)
    • Bloodcrushers (DoC)
    • Plague Drones (DoC)
    • Pegasus Knights (Bretonnia)
    • Ripperdactyl Riders (LM)
    • Terradon Riders (LM)
    • Mournfang Cavalry (OK)
    • Rhinox Riders (OK, unofficial)
    • Warhawk Riders (WE)

    Of course, some of these are definitely a lighter variant of "true" monstrous cavalry. Ignoring the Rhinox riders, the only true heavy Monstrous Calvary are the Skullcrushers, Bloodcrushers, Plague Drones, Mournfang, Demigryph Knights and Necro Knights.

    Did I miss any?

    Would you place Elven and Lizardmen magic above that of the Tomb Kings? Beastmen?

    WoC also have great movement potential but only average leadership.

    Personally, I've always liked the fact that not all armies have access to all the troop types. I think it helps differentiate the armies from one another. It makes the game more fun because armies play vastly different from one another and thus need to employ different strategies to make use of unique advantages and cover unique weaknesses. The more we make the armies uniform, the more we have a game of "mirror matches".
     
  16. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    We already have Kroxigors.

    Do you mean heavy Monstrous Cavalry? As they already have Pegasus Knights.
     
  17. Scalenex
    Slann

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    Yes, the same thing when I say Lizardmen need one.

    Brettonia is all about their cavalry. Their culture is built around cavalry. They need to be tripping over themselves in cavalry options.

    Core, Special and Rare variants of basic armored cavalry (which they do have)
    They need at least Core and Special variants of fast cavalry.
    They need something similar to Empire Chicken Knights.

    Maybe a seventh type of cavalry with a gimmicky power. I don't know what the Brettonian gimmicky cavalry would look like (unicorn riders?) but the Dark Elves, Wood Elves, and Vampire Counts all have a cavalry type witha gimmicky power.


    Lizardmen don't need heavy monstrous cavalry as much as Bretts do, but we should be tripping over our options for cool looking dinosaurs.
     
  18. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    I believe that Wood Elves already have a unicorn as a character mount. However, if I'm not mistaken, Bretonnia borders Athel Loren, so that might make sense from a lore perspective.

    I wonder what kind of new units Bretonnia would have gotten if they had received an army book before the demise of WFB.


    From a lore and aesthetic sense I completely agree. Game wise, we already have a pretty rich and diverse army, plus we're pretty well balanced.

    Those lower tier armies really do need some sort of help. TK would have been the easiest to fix with a couple of point adjustments and minor rule tweaks (let them march if within range of the general, allow secondary wizards to prevent the army from crumbling, allow stand and shoot, allow constructs to be healed a bit more efficiently... like one would per augment cast on them).
     
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  19. Warden
    Slann

    Warden Tenth Spawning

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    I do like that TWW2 added the hippogryph knights as a unit, similar to the griffin-knights in the Empire.

    Not sure what dino the Lizardmen could have added to make a monster-cav unit though? We got the t-rex already, we got the triceratops, got the velociraptor and ankylosaur, a thunder-lizard is too big and a spiked stegosaurus is too slow?
     
  20. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    What about a larger (and possibly more spiky) version of this (Pachycephalosaurus)...
    [​IMG]

    They could give it some special rules for a truly horrific charge (impact hits or bonus strength on the charge). They can easily scale it to be the right size for monstrous cavalry and add some "carnivore" flavor to make it more menacing (claws, teeth, etc.)
     

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